The death penalty.

[Shytalkz]

Nobody can arrive at a position of support for state-sanctioned killing by reason...

They can: the reasoning being that the current hoody-hugging and apologistic hand-wringing plainly does not work.

...and not have had to reason their way out of the problem of wrongful convictions. They will have had to say "I know that my policy will result in innocent people being killed. I know that it is not a case of they might be, or that things could go wrong, I know with absolute certainty that things will go wrong. I know with absolute certainty that people will lie. I know with absolute certainty that there will be innocent people suffering the unspeakably monstrous situation of being deliberately killed by the state when they have done nothing wrong. I know with absolute certainty that we cannot have punishment killings without killing innocent people, it simply is not possible, therefore if I want punishment killings I must want innocent people to be killed".

And you think that that possibility (not certainty) is more heinous than the certainty with the laws as they are that more innocent people will continue to be knifed/stabbed/throttled/raped?

No matter how much you try to justify it with "of the greater good", or "it's a price worth paying", it comes down to this - "I want a system where the state will deliberately kill innocent people".

No, they want a system where the accused has been tried, found guilty and there is no reasonable doubt that they did it. Which with forensics and DNA testing is as near a certainty as it can be.

And that is utterly appalling.

No it's not, it's merely a different viewpoint from the one that you hold.

Anyone who has reasoned themselves into that position has abandoned any claim to be decent and moral, and has, in fact, lumped themselves into the same category as the other proponents - those who just want it because they are bloodthirsty and violent thugs.

But not all those who want it are by definition boodthirsty and violent thugs: they just believe that the current system is useless, does not work and, if you've been found guilty of taking a life, then you forfeit the right to your own, having been tried and found guilty by due legal process.

I am against it because it is WRONG.

In your view. Your being against it does not make being wrong a truism. You believe it to be wrong; others say not so.

I am against it because just like 1:1 violence in the pub it is the last resort of the incompetent and inadequate.

This is not a valid comparison, it's like apples and oranges.

and anyone who's not is morally bankrupt, morally inferior to you, loathsome and, now, a moron.

They are.

And I repeat: they are not, they just happen to hold a different viewpoint from you.

THEY WANT TO KILL PEOPLE.

THEY WANT TO KILL PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

Ah, the rage is building again. No, they want people convicted of murder to be removed from the gene pool. Not innocents, not random people plucked from the street, merely those tried under law and found guilty.

Very persuasive comments,

If you were open to persuasion, and had any shred of decency, you would never in a million years be in favour of the state killing people in the first place.

And yet again, you resort to personal insults. I am a decent and generally law-abiding citizen (speeding excepted ). I rescue birds from my cats, never kill spiders, help old dears across the street, don't steal, cheat or drink to excess and can't remember the last physical fight that I had. I have loud cans on my bike, a diddy number plate and I often get the wind up my árse and go a tad fast on it, but that's about the limit of my "hooliganism". The only people I hate with a vengeance are druggies and their dealers, because of what drugs do to them and those around them (speaking from personal experience). Ergo, all in all, I'm a fairly benign individual, I would say, exactly like the vast majority of people on the planet. So don't go saying that I don't have a shred of decency in my make-up, thanks very much.

I expect others to be broadly the same and have every right to do so; however, if they commit murder, then I do not see that the system as-is can be considered in any shape or form an improvement on the days of capital punishment. Thus, in my view, having the death penalty cannot make things any worse than they already are and will have the positive outcome in most people's eyes of justice having been seen to be done.

 

[Shytalkz]

We have countless rules, regulations and laws which organise our society in ways where we prevent people from just doing whatever they want.

We do? So tell me, how do these murders take place then, if the machinery of the state is already in place to prevent it?

The parents of this victim may well, in anger and grief, want society to introduce killing people, including innocent ones just like their child, as a means of control. But they may not have it.

Have what? That belief, or that means of controlling individual behaviour?

 

[Shytalkz]

And nobody who is capable of genuine reason and has moral standards could ever want the killing in the first place.

Rubbish: a killing, or rape has already taken place, leading to the conviction of that person. Your wishy-washy liberalist tendencies make the likelihood of someone being killed far more likely, in that, as things stand, the perpetrator knows that they won't be suffering the ultimate fate themselves.

Your opposition in the main seems to centre on the outside possibility of someone innocent getting caught in the system. That possibility is and always has been a remote one.

 

[doitall]

BAS= THEY WANT TO KILL PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

Tell that to a 15 year girl going home from school after she is repeatedly stab to death.

They have no rights and should be put down like a dog.

 

[billyo]

what if its 100% certain that they did it ,why should we keep them alive in prison for ever , what do they or us get out of it just asking remember that the victim's family have to pay tax's which help keep them alive' , and if we belive there is no God why not make sure they pay the ultimate price hear on earth , as there victim did , STOP SHOUTING AT ME i am only asking

 

[masona]

what if its 100% certain that they did it ,why should we keep them alive in prison for ever , what do they or us get out of it just asking remember that the victim's family have to pay tax's which help keep them alive

The death penalty is much more expensive than life imprisonment.

I don't agree with the death penalty not because it's not cost effective, I couldn't murder anyone and I don't expect anyone to murder on my behalf but life must mean life in prison.

 

[Shytalkz]

The death penalty is much more expensive than life imprisonment.

How does that calculate out, ooi?

I don't agree with the death penalty not because it's not cost effective, I couldn't murder anyone and I don't expect anyone to murder on my behalf but life must mean life in prison.

Take note BAS: he disagrees with it, but not a trace of bold, CAPS, increased font size, comments as to the parentage of those who would like to see it reintroduced. But he still made his view known. It can be done .

 

[vinty]

People who oppose capital punishment are moral snobs, this why the only justification they have for opposing capital punishment is that those who do support it are somehow backward or morally and intellectually inferior.

That's because they are.

They can never give a logical reason in defence of their opposition to capital punishment.

The only reason you should expect that is because you do not have enough decency or morality to know that killing is wrong.

And nobody who is capable of genuine reason and has moral standards could ever want the killing in the first place.

Is killing wrong in every circumstance? the state kills plenty of people in war time. What about people who have served a life sentence, then on their release have gone on to kill again, what would you say to their victims families.

 

[Shytalkz]

...what would you say to their victims families.

Something along the lines of "It was unfortunate that your relative has been murdered, but it is better that than a state-sponsored execution of someone who just might have been innocent of the crime, despite all evidence to the contrary; and, if you want him dead, regardless of your grief, then you are sub-human and exist in a moral vacuum."

 

[Shytalkz]

BAS: this will tell you if you've tapped into the zeitgeist and it's us that have got it all wrong....

 

[Dr Drivel]

Damn right it is - I cannot tolerate the presence here, or in my life, or in my country of those who want to turn it into one that kills or tortures people.

I don't have the power to remove them from this forum, or to remove them from this country, but I sure as hell am not going to let them think that I tolerate them, and I sure as hell am going to make it crystal clear just how much I hate them, loathe them, despise them etc.

Me. Me. Me.

At what point do you consider the selfish repetition of What You Think to be falling on stony ground, and that it's time for a different approach?

Am I getting through to you yet?

You're clearly not, and I don't know why you haven't realised that.

So don't you dare try and tell me that you are morally my equal, or that your views are just views and have as much validity here as any other, not when your views are that killing and torture are acceptable practices.

Well here's a thing. I'm morally not only your equal, I'm your superior, because not only do I find abhorrent the same thing as you, but I'm able and willing to consider the points of view of the people at whom you're bleating (so incredibly tiresomely). At the end of the day (sic.), the presentation of your argument makes it less likely that they would ever agree to see yours.

If you stopped shouting for a moment then you might realise that your vociferous dismissal of those people who advocate capital punishment is just as uncivilised as the closed-eared dismissal of the right of murderers to continue living. It's certainly true that you're not killing anyone, but you are letting your emotions control your decisions, just as they say that they would like to do.

So, the thing that I find vile and reprehensible is that an intelligent person thinks that repeatedly bludgeoning opponents with a verbal stick is a valid way forward.

 

[Shytalkz]

Is plagiarism allowed in the forum?!

 

[joe-90]

If it wasn't you'd be banned.

 

[Shytalkz]

Lol, now why do you say that, my ol' fruit(cake )?

 

[masona]

The death penalty is much more expensive than life imprisonment.

How does that calculate out, ooi?

Here's one of the link, there's plenty info out there quoting death penalty is not cost effective

Death penalty is not cost effective