The EU Referendum

[Freddie]

But its there in black and white and there is more evidence to say it would work as i mentioned because that situation existed up to around a few years ago.

Your suggestion to go along with the new way pushed by some WU political figures of joining up into one big country and doing it that way is uncharted waters and some of the pitfalls have already been pointed out.

 

[Freddie]

Anybody still reading this thread please go and have a look at the Engineers comments today in the England our England thread -----hilarious from a man who claims to know it all with no evidence to back up his wild claims

 

[Big_Spark]

Anybody still reading this thread please go and have a look at the Engineers comments today in the England our England thread -----hilarious from a man who claims to know it all with no evidence to back up his wild claims

You still resort to cheap taunts...I really feel sorry for you...(well actually no I don't)

 

[david and julie]

Freddie..that is YOUR personal feeling..it is as valid as anyone elses..but it is not debate based on facts or extrapolated evidence.

I mean use genuine facts and figures to support your argument, not simply your Gut feeling...no matter how personally felt or valid it may be.

We are all going to use our own gut feeling as well as what we have read, that is what people do when discussing something. Instead of knocking us all the time why not try and disprove our comments. Are our ascertions about VAT on houses true or false? does tax harmonization require the UK to charge VAT on more items?

Norway, on the sidelines, takes the benefits without the costs higher GDP and living standards.

Switzerland much the same.

Greenland, left the EU because it was crippling their livelihoods, so it can be done, they have not disappeared and sunk into the ocean have they?

Indeed I believe all the countries in the EEA are doing OK despite not being EU members, Europhiles never mention that in the main its member states are comitted to free trade. There is also another aspect you don't mention, which could happen, lets consider this hypothetical scenario. Half the people in Europe are pro and the other half are anti, this is a fair estimate. (We don't know the true figure because would be dictatorships like the EU refuse votes) If say Holland or France left the EU, as an anti I would deliberately seek out their products to help prove they don't need the EU. I would do this in the hope that they were successful so the UK would follow their lead. It is a fact that millions of other people like me would do the same. Does this make sense to either of you Pro's?

You talked about defence and said the EU had kept the peace for 60 years, despite the fact 60 years ago it wasn't in existence. What happens to both our and France's seats on the UN security council after the constitution vote? We now both have a say and a vote, one EU may or may not get a vote as a new member, but either way it will only have one instead of 2. Does this not reduce our joint sway?

 

[Big_Spark]

We are all going to use our own gut feeling as well as what we have read, that is what people do when discussing something. Instead of knocking us all the time why not try and disprove our comments. Are our ascertions about VAT on houses true or false? does tax harmonization require the UK to charge VAT on more items?

To a degree you are correct regarding Gut feelings.Regarding Knocking you, that is a pot calling the kettle black, all you and Freddie have done is resort to cheap insults and purile comments..

There is NO VAT on House prices in Europe..do you reallt think the pople of France, Germany, Denmark etc would accpet such a proposal..of course not, that is pure propaganda by the anti-European camp. Further, any UK Government that went along with that would be handing the next election to the opposition on a plate!! It is a none starter.

Norway, on the sidelines, takes the benefits without the costs higher GDP and living standards.

Where is your proof of this..Norway voted to join with the largest majority YES vote in the EU history. They justy don't go in for the mud slinging that othere states do..they just get on with it. Their Prime concern is the Common Fisheries Policy as it has a direct effect on the national economy as they are so reliant on fisheries.

Switzerland much the same.

They are not an EU member state, so who gives a **** about their opinion.

Greenland, left the EU because it was crippling their livelihoods, so it can be done, they have not disappeared and sunk into the ocean have they?

Total BULLSHIT...Greenland is solely owned and governed by Denmark, the people have Danish Passports and speak either Inuit, Danish or English.

Indeed I believe all the countries in the EEA are doing OK despite not being EU members, Europhiles never mention that in the main its member states are comitted to free trade. There is also another aspect you don't mention, which could happen, lets consider this hypothetical scenario. Half the people in Europe are pro and the other half are anti, this is a fair estimate. (We don't know the true figure because would be dictatorships like the EU refuse votes) If say Holland or France left the EU, as an anti I would deliberately seek out their products to help prove they don't need the EU. I would do this in the hope that they were successful so the UK would follow their lead. It is a fact that millions of other people like me would do the same. Does this make sense to either of you Pro's?

That would start a trade war in Europe, and that could easily escalate to a shooting war..so not a good idea.

You talked about defence and said the EU had kept the peace for 60 years, despite the fact 60 years ago it wasn't in existence. What happens to both our and France's seats on the UN security council after the constitution vote? We now both have a say and a vote, one EU may or may not get a vote as a new member, but either way it will only have one instead of 2. Does this not reduce our joint sway?

The EU was proposed some 60 years ago this year, but it took several years to create the framework for the original EEC as it was known...The working together after WWII for a common economic policy certainly helped to keep the peace in a fragmented Europe and allowed everyone to look at things with fresh eyes. You may like to know that the original proposer of the EEC was actually Winston Churchill, and that this was the reason the French (Charles DeGaul) blocked our inclusion for more than a decade. He was still bitter about the way he had been marginalised during WWII.

Regarding the Security Council, to be honest I don't care about the UN. It is a toothless dog that should be re-organised or shot. The UN has not kept peace, nor has it even remotely halted wars.

Where was the UN when the Yanks got themselves sucked into Vietnam? The Russian's into Afghanistan? or the hundreds of other conflicts around the globe...

Why does the UN constantly refuse to enforce the trade embargoes against israel for their treatment of the Palistinians?

The UN had it's chance, It failed dismally, just like the League of Nations.

 

[Freddie]

Anybody still reading this thread please go and have a look at the Engineers comments today in the England our England thread -----hilarious from a man who claims to know it all with no evidence to back up his wild claims

You still resort to cheap taunts...I really feel sorry for you...(well actually no I don't)

I have never resorted to cheap taunts, it is you who since your first post has insulted and name called anybody on here who didnt see your point of view.

All the time you have argued your point and backed it up with absolutley no concrete evidence, and then posted exactly what we had been saying all the time about democracy on another thread.

You have lost all credability on anything you say on this matter through posting as you did as it contradicts everything you have been argueing for.

I am sorry mate you dont know what you are talking about, you cant back it up, and you have shown you have no experience in anything that you have said. Like i said at the beginning back of a fag packet idealism, i can honestly say you would make a good EU politician


And by the way i havent insulted anybody on here anywhere

 

[david and julie]

FWL you are wrong, worse still you are a Euro xenophobe.

Are you saying Norway is a member of the EU? AS far as I knew they had voted for it and refused twice, however there are signs that attitudes are slightly changing towards a yes. This is caused in the main by the younger people who are less cynical than the old who have heard all this garbage before. I believe they may be having another vote in 2007. Am I right or wrong?

Yes I know Greenland is part of Denmark and I also know they were given a free vote on membership of the EU and voted out because the common fisheries policy was damaging to their national interest. The point being they are the only one that was given a true option and they voted out, this is why europhiles, such as you, as scared stiff of democratic voting on this issue.

I care about Switzerland, your comment is clear Euro xenophobia, no better than the BNP in the UK. I don't expect you to understand that though. Likewise your comments on the UN are the biased rubbish. Theoretic ideas, regardless of who holds them cannot prevent wars. To use your rubbish way of debating, can you prove the EU as done this?

Are you denying that tax harmonization means increasing both the VAT rate and also reducing zero rate exemptions? Just to explain to you in a way you may understand. If a government gets voted out for implementing an unpopular EU directive that directive remains. We cannot stop or change directives because we have no say or vote on it. It is all decided by appointees behind closed doors. Mep's resemble the dogs you used to see in car windows, they can only nod, fine for car insurance but otherwise overpaid scrounging waste of space the lot of them.

btw, you europhiles have me confused, am I a transvestite or a homophobe?

 

[Big_Spark]

D&J..I suppose in this day and age you could be a homophobic transvestite...But I would not fancy your shrink bills if that were the case

Regarding your other point..How do you reckon I am a Europhobe? The Swiss are no contributers to the EU, so on this point I do not care what they think..same as I do not care what the US, China, Russia, Sth Africa or any other NO-EU nation thinks of the EU..they are entitled to their opinion, but I don't let it bother me..that hardly makes me a phobic of any description does it..

Regarding Greenland..your wrong..I was living in Denmark at the time of the Vote, Dragebakken 568 ,Odense 5250 to be precise, and I am fully aware of that so called vote...I know how it has been reported..and your impression is not your fault, simply the way the media reported it.

Whay are my comments on the UN biased rubbish..Justify your comment..Until the Un is reorganised and given some real teeth, it will remain ineffective, that is simple..

 

[david and julie]

Regarding your other point..How do you reckon I am a Europhobe?

I didn't say your was a Europhobe I said this.

I care about Switzerland, your comment is clear Euro xenophobia, no better than the BNP in the UK.

Which was in response to this comment from you.

They are not an EU member state, so who gives a s**t about their opinion.

In this instance a Euro Xenophobe would be someone who doesn't care about another country, such as what you said about Switzerland. It is clear Euro nationalism the inference is you don't give a s**t about anyone who is not from the EU, same as BNP in the UK as I said.

Regarding Greenland..your wrong..I was living in Denmark at the time of the Vote, Dragebakken 568 ,Odense 5250 to be precise, and I am fully aware of that so called vote...

So you saying that Greenland are in the EU?

A referendum on 2 October 1972 resulted in 63 per cent for and 36 per cent against Danish membership of the European Communities
(EC). As the first Nordic country Denmark acceded to the EC on 1 January 1973. Greenland joined the EC together with Denmark, whereas the Faroe Islands decided to remain outside. Greenland decided to leave the EC in 1982.[/

http://www.eu2002.dk/EU2002/eu/default.asp?MenuElementID=5201

Whay are my comments on the UN biased rubbish..Justify your comment..Until the Un is reorganised and given some real teeth, it will remain ineffective, that is simple..

This comment is rubbish because it as nothing to do with what I said which was.

You talked about defence and said the EU had kept the peace for 60 years, despite the fact 60 years ago it wasn't in existence. What happens to both our and France's seats on the UN security council after the constitution vote? We now both have a say and a vote, one EU may or may not get a vote as a new member, but either way it will only have one instead of 2. Does this not reduce our joint sway?

My comment is chrystal clear, both France and the UK are permanant members of the UN security council. If we say yes to the EU constitution we effectively become a new state. Memberstates are then represented by the EU on foreign policy and defence issues, which would include the UN. As a new member of the security council the EU may not get a seat even though France and the UK would presumably have to relinquish theirs. I cannot see how this would increase our influenze at the UN. The fact you don't like the UN is irrelevant and not a valid justification for our losing this advantage.

Struggling a bit here aren't you, how are you getting on with our 20% tax rebate?

 

[Freddie]

Your wasting your time, he cant put any evidence up for his claims, he then acuses you are not qualifying your claim and when you do he starts spouting insults.

Engineer is only interested in his opinion and is never wrong and its always everybody elses fault.

Do you think he has convinced anybody to vote yes in the EU referendum????

 

[jasy]

no, i was going to vote no anyway. but because my reason is not one of engineers reasons, i would 1) probably be fined. 2) be shot and 3) be known as uneducated because as we all know, his way or no way. what a prat

 

[Freddie]

I just read another post from Engineer and thought this is a classic, so i copied part of it and posted it here, see what you think, he is a pure gem.


Fw_Engineer

You are entitled to your opinion, mob and admin hats aside, and of course you cannot agree with everyone as that would make you look foolish, but putting your point across intelligently and without aggression in the post, or personal comments is not as difficult as it sounds,

 

[jasy]

The man is obviously in a confused state and should seek medical help as soon as possible. It has got to be that or the cast of the muppet show have a computer linked to the net!!

 

[david and julie]

To be honest I don't believe FWL is a muppet at all. He has been missing from the forum for a while, for his own personal reasons. I recall reading his posts on electrics and they were in the main knowledgable, interesting and helpful.

I have never had this type of debate with him before and I can only assume he either has something else on his mind or he is a fanatic supporter of the EU. I hope it is my second assumption.

 

[jasy]

Think before you speak (or type) is always sound advice