The EU Referendum

[david and julie]

Factsheet No. 078
March 2005
UNEMPLOYMENT IN EU MEMBER STATE
Eurostat compiles "harmonised" unemployment rates for EU Member States. These unemployment rates are based on definitions recommended by the International Labour Organisation (ILO).

I have highlighted the EU and the US

SEASONALLY ADJUSTED UNEMPLOYMENT RATES IN EU MEMBER STATES : Latest Data (%)
Euro-zone 8.8
EU25 8.8
EU15 8.0
Belgium 8.0
Czech Rep. 8.3
Denmark 5.1
Germany 9.6
Estonia 8.1
Greece 10.5
Spain 10.3
France 9.7
Ireland 4.3
Italy 7.8
Cyprus 5.6
Latvia 9.6
Lithuania 9.1
Lux. 4.4
Hungary 6.3
Malta 6.9
Neth. 4.7
Austria 4.5
Poland 18.2
Portugal 6.9
Slovenia 5.8
Slovakia 16.5
Finland 8.9
Sweden 6.1
UK 4.6
USA 5.2
Japan 4.5

Data all from here.

http://www.ibeurope.com/Factfile/78unemp.htm

 

[H&J]

The unemployment figures have been messed about so much, started in the Thatcher era.

So many are not included in the figures, that any percentage is meaningless.

Some of the who are not included , under 18 years of age, over 55 years of age, up to 800000 who have become long term signed on as sick, this is done for better benefits, people are "encouraged" to go on training courses for 6 months, are paid extra money and come off unemployment.

I read a couple of weeks ago, some experts are saying that the true figure for unemployed people could be up to 5 times the official figure.
Although this sounds high to me, I really do believe it's 2 million +.

 

[Big_Spark]

David&Julie, if you took offence to my comments earlier I apologise..it was not meant in that way at all, hence the laughing face!!

Regarding those figures about population..


I have just trawled the web and found the stats for the individual states as compiled by those states.

The total for the US using this method is 253,782,917 souls, and this does include the States of Alaska and Hawaii, but excluded all protectorates, adding these adds a mere 5.6 Million people.

Now, forgetting the EU figures, I have done exactly the same for the EU member states, and the figure totals some 529,712,334. I realise that this is NOT 3 times as I stated in my earlier post, this was a mistake on my part as I was thinking of the figure for a combined European figure, as in geographical Europe, but this is obviously not the EU...I apologise for the error.

Regarding the Unemployment rates, these are wildly misleading and straightline comparisons are difficult. The US calculates this figure in a rather ambiguous manner as they class this data as a sort of classified bit of information.

CNN reports recently try to claim that this figure is only 4.9%, whilst the Federal Dept of Labor claims 5.4%, however the Federal-State Unemployment Compensation Program claims that the figure is actually nearer 12.7% based on actual Unemployment payouts and the fact that in most cases in the US people do not claim benefit. The Depot of Labor figures are based purely on claimants of Unemployment benefits, but these are generally limited to Urban Areas, the FSUCP uses computer modelling in order to get a truer figure based on poulation density, industrial development and Tax records, which being a Federal Agency they have access too. This is why their figure gives a truer picture of the situation.

In the EU many people that are claiming benefits are usually classed as unemployed, this will include those on some form of invalidity or similar medical benefit and thus may not actually be truly unemployed. The UK figures are a mish mass of both systems which is why the figures are always disputed by the political parties and other social organisations.

If you ONLY include those known to be Unemployed as they are in receipt of Unemployment benfits or, as in the UK, Job seekers allowance, then the EU wide figure is only around 4.9%. Yes this is a difficult thing to pin down, but taking everything into account I think we can assume the true EU wide figure is around the 5.5% mark.

It is actually this type of bull that gets the EU in trouble, these figures should be clear and concise with seperate figures for people claiming a specific benefit, not just lumped together to suit a political argument as often happens.

Freddie, if you wish to get personal I would suggest you stop now.

 

[Richardp]

this last post by FWL_Engineer is alot more dignified than some of the comments on this thread, maybe we should all take a leaf out of his book.

 

[Freddie]

I dont wish to get personal with anyone in the way you mean.

But i do object to people like you telling me i havent a clue what i am talking about.

I dont wish to put my personal stuff on here for the sake of being a complete bore, but to tell me i havent a clue about business and not just mine, you have no idea what i know or have done or anything, and i stand by my comment----Who would enter a business agreement when you arent getting an equal anything and are actually being ripped off??------no one !!

The only thing you may be referring too is shares in a company, and that is not what i am talking about.

By the way for what its worth, i actually know of someone who works in the EU. One of the people who Neil Kinnock said he reformed. Well if he was on this forum he would be screaming the place down with your comments on the way forward. I think he would actually agree with ideas made up on the back of a fag packet

 

[Freddie]

In your last post Engineer you are even agreeing with us about the EU being wrong but you havent put up an argument for your point of the way forward

Idealism is not worthwhile answer to your point, thats just a dream really, the reality of it, is it just doesnt work which is why we are posting on here.

Communism was very similar and in reality that didnt work, infact wherever or whenever as there been an example of it working in thousands of years of history----never and nowhere.

You cannot push forward your idealism with such a large part of the EU populatio against it or not sure, that is a recipe for disaster, and you are saying nothing new, the politicians have been there before you, and this is the result----nobody believes them anymore cause they cant show us where or when there idealism has ever worked since the EU started.

 

[david and julie]

Can't you read richard he called me a tranny and said freddie had no idea in business. What sort of reaction do you expect?

I am well aware the unemployment figures are fiddled to suit however the figures on the link were compiled using the same International Labour Organisation counting methods so are the nearest true method we have.

Infant mortality rates in the US don't seem that much worse to me than most EU countries. The US says 6.6 deaths per thousand. UK 5.2. There are plenty more European countries to compare here.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

Lets get this into perspective though the figure in Angola for example is 192. These deaths can be through innumeral reasons, what have our lower figures got to do with the EU?

I presume you have accepted you were wrong about GDP?

 

[Big_Spark]

Feddie, Business partnerships and other business agreements are based on exposure, the more your investment, then the more say you have. This is not the same as equal as you claimed in your post, this is information that is patently obvious to anyone.

If I invested £1 Million in a company venture, and my partner only invested £500,000, then I would expect and demand more of a say in the day to day running of the company than my partner, equally, if another invested added a further £2 million to the company, then I would expect them to have a far greater say than I in the running of that business.

The EU should be EXACTLY the same, nations with a greater population therfore have a greater exposure and a greater investment in the partnership, consequently they should have a greater say in how the EU operates. However this is NOT the way the EU works at this time. The Nations in the EU with the greatest exposure in the EU are Germany, The UK then France. Consequently the three countries that should have the greatest say are these three, but this is not always the case, often the Uk is marginalised due to the bickering the UK goes in for.

 

[Freddie]

Feddie, Business partnerships and other business agreements are based on exposure, the more your investment, then the more say you have. This is not the same as equal as you claimed in your post, this is information that is patently obvious to anyone.

If I invested £1 Million in a company venture, and my partner only invested £500,000, then I would expect and demand more of a say in the day to day running of the company than my partner, equally, if another invested added a further £2 million to the company, then I would expect them to have a far greater say than I in the running of that business.

The EU should be EXACTLY the same, nations with a greater population therfore have a greater exposure and a greater investment in the partnership, consequently they should have a greater say in how the EU operates. However this is NOT the way the EU works at this time. The Nations in the EU with the greatest exposure in the EU are Germany, The UK then France. Consequently the three countries that should have the greatest say are these three, but this is not always the case, often the Uk is marginalised due to the bickering the UK goes in for.

But thats exactly the point i and others have made here. Have you bothered to read the other posts, the one which started this thread is exactly the point you have just made---- WE THE BRITISH ARE PAYING MORE THAN THE REST AND GETTING A LOT LESS OUT !!!!

Beam me up Scotty.

 

[Freddie]

Again you agree with us the EU is a load of ****** but you havent validated your argument on why we have or to go forward with them when it doesnt work.

 

[Big_Spark]

Can't you read richard he called me a tranny and said freddie had no idea in business. What sort of reaction do you expect?

I presume you have accepted you were wrong about GDP?

I DID NOT call you a tranny in the manner you claim. Read the post, have you had a sense of humour removal? I ASKED if you were married or a confused Tranny, if you find this offensive to the point of being able to laugh it off as a silly comment then I truly feel sorry for you.

Regarding the GDP you said

Your GDP figures are also falacious because you are adding the economies of all the EU members together when in fact the EU does not have direct access to these economies. The US on the otherhand does control all its economy so has the bigger GDP, simple maths even for morons I reckon.

My figures are not falacious, I stated that straight comparisons are difficult. I KNOW that the EU has no direct control over the member states economies in the way the US Federal Government does, however if you ADD the GDP's of the EU member states together you get an approximation of the true GDP of the EU, and this is larger than the US per head of capita.

Obviously this figure would be different if the EU was a true government and the EU was a single economy, but the difference would likely be even greater.

 

[david and julie]

If I invested £1 Million in a company venture, and my partner only invested £500,000, then I would expect and demand more of a say in the day to day running of the company than my partner, equally, if another invested added a further £2 million to the company, then I would expect them to have a far greater say than I in the running of that business.

This is not actually true in all cases though, your partner may well be putting less in because he has all the knowledge or contacts to make the business work. Venture capitalists often invest the bigger part, for an agreed share of company and profit, but refrain from the day to day running of the business. Nothing unusual in this these days, the banks do the same thing to a lesser degree.

 

[Big_Spark]

Again you agree with us the EU is a load of **** but you havent validated your argument on why we have or to go forward with them when it doesnt work.

Freddie, The UK does not contribute more than any other nation, Germany does. Also, I acknowledge the current system is not perfect and needs to be changed, but that does not make it a bad thing.

It IS generally the British Governments that have caused a lot of the problems with Europe. They use it as a political football for their own homegrown means.

They NEVER tell the public the truth about the the EU, in fact they rarely tell the truth about anything!!

Argueing like a ****, as many UK policians do, does not solve problems, eother here or in the EU.

 

[Big_Spark]

This is not actually true in all cases though, your partner may well be putting less in because he has all the knowledge or contacts to make the business work. Venture capitalists often invest the bigger part, for an agreed share of company and profit, but refrain from the day to day running of the business. Nothing unusual in this these days, the banks do the same thing to a lesser degree.

That is very true D/J, but I was not about to get into a deep discussion on the intricasies of different business models. Although the Investers do have the power to assume control of the compnay in order to protect their investment if they feel it is required. Usually they do this by forcing the appoinment of a selected individual to run the company on their behalf. This is common in pharmaceutical and technology start-ups where the scientist(s) have the technical expertise but lack the business experience.

 

[Freddie]

Engineer one more time----the post which started this thread was not my view or anybody elses it was taken off the BBc news website about the french wanting us to pay more when it was pointed out on the website that we already pay 3 times more than the french and they want us to pay up to 14 times more than the French but get nothing extra out.

Wheres the points to validate your argument??????????????