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It's not ridiculous at all. If the world is running out of oil, then money needs to be spent on finding alternatives. The achohol in your Bacardi Breezer is made by bugs. 'Bugs' make alchohol, alchohol is bug poop. The methane in your flatulence is made by different bugs...

Alchohol, methane and oil are all biologically derived organic componds of hydrogen and carbon. Alchohol and methane can both be synthesised biologically on a commercial scale so if a microbe can be genetically engineered to produce different hydrocarbons from waste then bring it on.

Indeed, bug based energy such as anaerobic digestion (see sewage works, landfill, biogas plants), algea derived biofuels (still not perfected and not guaranteed to be worth it), waste organic oils from industry and food wastes..... to name a few point to some alternatives to supplyment our fossil fuel appetites.

Given that oil is not going to suddenly run, such sources of fuel can be developed as (or before) the need arises.

Coal, as has been mentioned can be used to make liquid and gaseous fuels, and many products, but it also contains uranium. Would be nice if we could get that out of it and stop polluting the atmosphere and manage our energy consumption a bit better.

Then there's solar CSP which has potential in desert areas. Great for California, and Israel, but might be useful for other countries that have arid deserts with a water supply and an energy demand to match the supply. If it does take off, start saving your aluminium cans, as they require a fair bit of aluminium.
 
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Canada has oil - but it isn't extractable. It's locked into the oil shale.
So why is Canada the biggest source of oil imports into the US?
No no no, you've confused "Canada" with "Canada". These are spelt the same way but "Canada" is a mythical country that exists only in joe-90's imagination.
 
I wasn't presuming anything, except that it's dangerous to play around with things you don't understand.
Please state who you believe is "playing around".

There's no glory in creating a black hole that instantly swallows the creator and everything else on the planet, and the planet itself, so I have faith that the team involved is having their calculations thoroughly checked over by more than a couple of blokes down the pub.
Oh well, that's all right then.
You're being either sarcastic, or just whimsical again. I don't see how being either of those is going to further the debate that you say you want to have.

I'm just putting the other side of the argument for the sake of debate, but it's postulated that the actual laws of physics break down in these things, and nobody understands what goes on in them or why.
Yes, but that's the whole point of the experiment - to better the understanding.

And I think you underestimate how many of the jigsaw puzzle pieces have already been found. Hawking Radiation, for example, has helped the understanding of, and observation of, the different 'sizes' of black holes, whilst at the same time creating a new question.

In view of the fact that in the incredibly unlikely (perhaps) event of one being created...
I don't know why you think it's unlikely. My personal view is that it's incredibly likely that they will succeed.

...that would be it for planet Earth...
I don't know why you equate a tiny black whole with Armageddon. I think you're making a mounting out of a wormhole.

(It might take donkeys years, but we'd all have to hit the lifeboats), maybe there should have been a bit more of a debate before the big switch on.
I don't know what you're referring to when you use the words "big switch on". It doesn't describe anything I've read about, so perhaps you could explain some more about that.
To answer your points one by one, the scientists involved are "playing around", the fact that they are doing it to try and gain a better understanding proves that they don't understand fully what they are doing.

They may have found a few pieces of the jigsaw, but again, nobody knows how many pieces are undiscovered, so I don't understand your point there.

A tiny black hole would, if massive enough to stay in existence, inevitably lead to armageddon, simply because there would be nothing that anybody could do about it with our current science, it would then just be a matter of time before it consumed everthing within reach of it's gravitational pull.

The big switch on in this case would obviously refer to the start of the experiment in the large hadron collider which you yourself believe will almost certainly create a temporary black hole.

Again, I am just trying to give the counter arguments. For myself I am happy that governments have spent the money to enable this fantastic research, lets hope it takes the human race further along the road to better understanding of the most fundamental questions of science, life, the universe and everything.

To infinity and beyond.
 
To answer your points one by one, the scientists involved are "playing around", the fact that they are doing it to try and gain a better understanding proves that they don't understand fully what they are doing.
Some of that is true, but there's a significant, IMHO, difference between knowing nothing, which would be a foolhardy starting point from which to attempt to create any type of spacetime anomoly, and knowing something, which is the reality of the situation.

They may have found a few pieces of the jigsaw, but again, nobody knows how many pieces are undiscovered, so I don't understand your point there.
My point is that knowledge is a continuum, with the goal of knowing 'everything' being a laudible and yet attainable one, and that the alternative to knowing everything isn't knowing nothing.

Enough confidence exists in the scientists who have obtained funding for this experiment to make it a feasible proposition with an in significant, IMHO, risk.

A tiny black hole would, if massive enough to stay in existence, inevitably lead to armageddon, simply because there would be nothing that anybody could do about it with our current science, it would then just be a matter of time before it consumed everthing within reach of it's gravitational pull.
This is where your understanding is violently tangential to reality, because you imply that there are two classes of black hole, viz:

1. Those so tiny that they don't stay in existence.
2. Those so massive that they never cease to exist.

This theory of yours doesn't fit with what I've read, so either:

a) You've read different things to me, and my understanding is incorrect;
or
b) You don't really know what you're talking about.

The thing that I keep repeating, that you seem to keep ignoring, is that we're surrounded by temporary black holes of a tiny size and a tiny lifespan. FYI, AFAIK, the energy needed to create even these tiny singularities easily exceeds the energy that the LHC will have at its disposal, ergo any CERN black hole will be hugely less potent than our those in our cosmic environment whose existence we survive with boring regularity.

The big switch on in this case would obviously refer to the start of the experiment in the large hadron collider which you yourself believe will almost certainly create a temporary black hole.
OK, but the use of the word big implies something that doesn't exist, i.e. A Big Switch, probably painted red and conspicuously labeled "Do not operate this unless you really really REALLY know what you're doing".

Without meaning to be offensive, the idea of such a switch is rather kindergarten in its reasoning. The LHC is an enormous, expensive and commensurately sophisticated piece of equipment. Its operation, and the observation of the results of its operation, are carefully and comprehensively controlled, in fact a rather tedious opposite to the image of Wile E. Coyote in front a big lever with his eyes screwed in up in fearful anticipation that you seem to be imagining.

Again, I am just trying to give the counter arguments. For myself I am happy that governments have spent the money to enable this fantastic research, lets hope it takes the human race further along the road to better understanding of the most fundamental questions of science, life, the universe and everything.

To infinity and beyond.
Well, I think I'm with you there, although it has a somewhat Pixarian literary touch about it.
 
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a) You've read different things to me, and my understanding is incorrect;
or
b) You don't really know what you're talking about.
You'll get no arguments from me on that one softus, of course I don't. Are you so sure that you're understanding is correct?
ergo any CERN black hole will be hugely less potent than our those in our cosmic environment whose existence we survive with boring regularity.
Space is a big place, obviously there aren't any in our immediate vicinity, or we wouldn't be here to talk about them. In my very limited understanding of these things, size doesn't really come into it. If it's massive and compact enough to be a black hole, however small, it will eventually pull in anything within it's gravitational field and squish it down to sweet fa.
OK, but the use of the word big implies something that doesn't exist, i.e. A Big Switch, probably painted red and conspicuously labeled "Do not operate this unless you really really REALLY know what you're doing".
How do you know they haven't got a big switch painted red with dire warnings all over it? Maybe they should have !
Well, I think I'm with you there, although it has a somewhat Pixarian literary touch about it.
Lighten up, it's only the end of the world if it all went tits up.
By the way I've read a little about Hawking radiation, which again to my limited understanding, points to the fact that black holes evaporate in time. But the time needed is so many times more than the current age of the universe that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that they never cease to exist.
 
Are you so sure that you're understanding is correct?
Where did I say that it was correct, or that I was sure about it?

I'm always ready to be corrected, and if I find out that I'm wrong then always say so. Please tell me if I was wrong and what I was wrong about.

Space is a big place, obviously there aren't any in our immediate vicinity, or we wouldn't be here to talk about them.
Wrong.

In my very limited understanding of these things, size doesn't really come into it.
Wrong.

If it's massive and compact enough to be a black hole, however small, it will eventually pull in anything within it's gravitational field and squish it down to sweet fa.
Wrong.

How do you know they haven't got a big switch painted red with dire warnings all over it?
It doesn't matter how I know.

Well, I think I'm with you there, although it has a somewhat Pixarian literary touch about it.
Lighten up, it's only the end of the world if it all went **** up.
Hm. Methinks you can't tell when I'm being light and when I'm not.

By the way I've read a little about Hawking radiation, which again to my limited understanding, points to the fact that black holes evaporate in time.
Right! :)

But the time needed is so many times more than the current age of the universe that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that they never cease to exist.
Wrong. :(
 
You tell us about black holes and space then softus. (he won't)
 
You tell us about black holes and space then softus. (he won't)
Please explain what you mean by "then", joe-90.

For example, do you mean:

1. You don't have a clue yourself.
2. You like interfering in someone else's discussion.
3. sooey wants you to debate on his behalf, because he's incapable.
4. You want me to travel back in time and explain "then".
5. Something else.

:?:
 
It means 'In that case' and number 3.
'Then' you need a letter of authority from sooey, two types of proof of identity, (one with a photo and one being a utility bill showing your current postal address), plus a letter from your legal guardian.

I'm sorry about all the red tape, but my hands are tied by the Data Protection Act.
 
Are you so sure that you're understanding is correct?
Where did I say that it was correct, or that I was sure about it?

I'm always ready to be corrected, and if I find out that I'm wrong then always say so. Please tell me if I was wrong and what I was wrong about.

Space is a big place, obviously there aren't any in our immediate vicinity, or we wouldn't be here to talk about them.
Wrong. Explain please.

In my very limited understanding of these things, size doesn't really come into it.
Wrong. Explain please.

If it's massive and compact enough to be a black hole, however small, it will eventually pull in anything within it's gravitational field and squish it down to sweet fa.
Wrong. Explain please.

How do you know they haven't got a big switch painted red with dire warnings all over it?
It doesn't matter how I know.

Well, I think I'm with you there, although it has a somewhat Pixarian literary touch about it.
Lighten up, it's only the end of the world if it all went **** up.
Hm. Methinks you can't tell when I'm being light and when I'm not. Neither can anyone else :LOL:

By the way I've read a little about Hawking radiation, which again to my limited understanding, points to the fact that black holes evaporate in time.
Right! :)

But the time needed is so many times more than the current age of the universe that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that they never cease to exist.
Wrong. Explain please. :(


Bear in mind if you're explanations rely on current scientific theory, that the whole point of this discussion was that theories may be wrong.
 
Space is a big place, obviously there aren't any in our immediate vicinity, or we wouldn't be here to talk about them.
Wrong.
Explain please.
You claim that black holes don't exist in our immediate vicinity.

I believe you to be guessing, and that your guess is wrong.

You also claim that it's obvious. I believe this to be evidence that you're guessing, and that it's not a correct statement, and therefore not an obvious conclusion.

In my very limited understanding of these things, size doesn't really come into it.
Wrong.
Explain please.
It's generally believed that the smaller (less massive) the black hole, the shorter its lifespan.

If it's massive and compact enough to be a black hole, however small, it will eventually pull in anything within it's gravitational field and squish it down to sweet fa.
Wrong.
Explain please.
You believe that "size" is not relevant. I believe that belief (of yours) to be ill-advised.

Lighten up, it's only the end of the world if it all went **** up.
Hm. Methinks you can't tell when I'm being light and when I'm not.
Neither can anyone else :LOL:
Ha ha.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between different degrees of truth and accuracy. In your world it seems to be all or nothing.

But the time needed is so many times more than the current age of the universe that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that they never cease to exist.
Wrong.
Explain please. :(


Bear in mind if you're explanations rely on current scientific theory, that the whole point of this discussion was that theories may be wrong.
Where I've based my knowledge on reading, I've said so. Where my statements have been opinion, I've said so.

Your whole point seems to hold as its cornerstone the belief that any black hole, of any size, or of any mass, or of any age, or of any position, or of any type, has an infinitely far reaching event horizon and has an effectively infinite lifespan.

Even if you ignore what I think, the only logical conclusion of your being right is that hundreds of qualified and experienced scientists are about to engulf the solar system in an ill-conceived experiment that has no possible outcome other than the extinction of humankind.

So, who's more likely to be right - hundreds of scientists, or sooey...

:?:
 
Space is a big place, obviously there aren't any in our immediate vicinity, or we wouldn't be here to talk about them.
Wrong.
Explain please.
You claim that black holes don't exist in our immediate vicinity.

I believe you to be guessing, and that your guess is wrong.

You also claim that it's obvious. I believe this to be evidence that you're guessing, and that it's not a correct statement, and therefore not an obvious conclusion. Yes, I should be more exact in my arguments, in this instance I was referring to the more massive variety. Which I think we would know about. Of course you are right that there may be much smaller ones around that haven't made their effects known yet. I suppose these are a good candidate for dark matter.
In my very limited understanding of these things, size doesn't really come into it.
Wrong.
Explain please.
It's generally believed that the smaller (less massive) the black hole, the shorter its lifespan. In this case I was referring to the fact that if a black hole big enough to be self sustaining was created, the fact that it was tiny wouldn't matter. As it fed on the matter around it it would grow. I believe that if something of that mass was created it would naturally sink to the centre of the earth and swallow us up from the inside out. I like you, also believe that there isn't enough energy available to create such a thing, and was arguing from a devil's advocate viewpoint as previously stated.
If it's massive and compact enough to be a black hole, however small, it will eventually pull in anything within it's gravitational field and squish it down to sweet fa.
Wrong.
Explain please.
You believe that "size" is not relevant. I believe that belief (of yours) to be ill-advised. As just stated, if it's big enough to exist, it's big enough to feed on it's surroundings.
Lighten up, it's only the end of the world if it all went **** up.
Hm. Methinks you can't tell when I'm being light and when I'm not.
Neither can anyone else :LOL:
Ha ha.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between different degrees of truth and accuracy. In your world it seems to be all or nothing.

But the time needed is so many times more than the current age of the universe that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that they never cease to exist.
Wrong.
Explain please. :(


Bear in mind if you're explanations rely on current scientific theory, that the whole point of this discussion was that theories may be wrong.
Where I've based my knowledge on reading, I've said so. Where my statements have been opinion, I've said so.

Your whole point seems to hold as its cornerstone the belief that any black hole, of any size, or of any mass, or of any age, or of any position, or of any type, has an infinitely far reaching event horizon and has an effectively infinite lifespan. I would say that the event horizon of a black hole is directly proportional to it's mass, as I understand it. Nothing like infinite, but it wouldn't need to be, to hurt us in the hypothetical case of one being created on Earth. I think I am right in saying that any black hole of a mass great enough to not "pop out of existence" as you put it, would have an effectively infinite lifespan.
Even if you ignore what I think, the only logical conclusion of your being right is that hundreds of qualified and experienced scientists are about to engulf the solar system in an ill-conceived experiment that has no possible outcome other than the extinction of humankind.

So, who's more likely to be right - hundreds of scientists, or sooey...Well I stated quite a few posts ago that I was just trying to put a counter argument forward for the sake of debate, and that I was all for this experiment. So do you really believe that I think we are all doomed, if not, what was the point of this last paragraph?
:?:
 
Yes, I should be more exact in my arguments, in this instance I was referring to the more massive variety. Which I think we would know about. Of course you are right that there may be much smaller ones around that haven't made their effects known yet.
...and my point is that they, outside a laboratory, never will.

I suppose these are a good candidate for dark matter.
You've lost me there.

...I was referring to the fact that if a black hole big enough to be self sustaining was created, the fact that it was tiny wouldn't matter. As it fed on the matter around it it would grow. I believe that if something of that mass was created it would naturally sink to the centre of the earth and swallow us up from the inside out.
And then, presumably, Superman would swoop in, crush the black hole in his super-palms, and fly it to center of the solar system where he's blow it into the gravitational pull of the Sun with his super-breath.

I like you, also believe that there isn't enough energy available to create such a thing, and was arguing from a devil's advocate viewpoint as previously stated.
OK. At least we're clear that neither of us believe that the thing you're claiming could happen, could happen.

As just stated, if it's big enough to exist, it's big enough to feed on it's surroundings.
I don't know where you're getting this stuff from. You seem to be just making it up as you go along.

I think I am right in saying that any black hole of a mass great enough to not "pop out of existence" as you put it, would have an effectively infinite lifespan.
1. Please show me where I used the words "pop out of existence" that you've attributed to me.

2. I think you are wrong in saying the thing that you think you're right in saying.

So, who's more likely to be right - hundreds of scientists, or sooey...
Well I stated quite a few posts ago that I was just trying to put a counter argument forward for the sake of debate, and that I was all for this experiment. So do you really believe that I think we are all doomed, if not, what was the point of this last paragraph?
Yes, I do really believe that you think we're all doomed, because of this:

Thats the big switch on at Cern.
Maybe that will be the big switch off for all of us, if they somehow create a black hole. :confused:
 
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