Ukraine President Getting Desperate

[ajohn]

Some people in Odessa made an interesting comment. Not keen on handing out weapons to anybody as all sorts are likely to get them. Reports on Odessa also odd. Siren warning when nothing is going on - yet. Our reporters do not understand this. Odessa also mentioned training to use them. One civilian soldier elsewhere was asked about this. Taught when young and how to think about killing people if any qualms about it. Personally I don't think I would have any problem.

It was pretty easy to find reports around when Minsk was agreed. A cease fire. It didn't come about because pea shooters were being used. A Rand report states when Russian troops were involved and points out that for the rest of the time it was mostly locals. They held ~1/3 of Donbas then. Since 2014 Uk and probably other countries troops have been in Ukraine training. It wasn't hard to find a report from around that time with google. A army person said that they were also being trained to street fight. Videos have been shown with Ukraine police being trained.

A military man commented on cease fires. They allow both sides to carry out preparations however long they are. 8 years allows for plenty of preparation. I wonder what for. Even short short cease fires are useful. Evacuations have a point as well. Both the attackers and defenders have less worry about killing civilians.

Evacuate to Russia. Given where some are sounds like a good idea to me. For some anyway.

 

[JohnD]

your nonsense

IRONY

 

[motorbiking]

Some people like to make out that the war in Ukraine is simple matter of a large country invading a small country.
They seem to forget that there was a war going on before Putins invasion.
Ukraine is a divided country along ethnic lines, some want to be part of the West, others want to be part of Russia.
No matter who is in Charge of Ukraine there will still be conflict.
The only real solution is to partition the country.

Same in the UK, some want to be part of EU some don't. England hasn't rolled tanks into Scotland for "mutinous" Independence talk.

 

[bernardgreen]

More than 8 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine,

People who live and work in peace with the ethnic Ukrainian population.

more than just a few agitators causing problems

it only takes a few people to create a false flag situation that can be used as a reason to invade.

Odd that ethnic Russians protested against the invasion and these ethnic Russians are being killed by the Russian invaders coming from Russia,


(( A German friend has a subsidiary company in the Ukraine which employs some ethnic Russians ))

 

[ajohn]

There is a mix there.

Ukraine is now at the International Court asking for an injunction based on Russia's genocide claims which apparently relate to pre Minsk. There was and still is a Fascist group and plus other weirdos at that time about so pass. The ruling they are after has never been used before.

Ukraine brought its case under the UN’s 1948 Genocide Convention, which contains a provision for settling disputes at the ICJ over how the convention is interpreted and applied.

AlJ have a reporter on one of the Russian evacuation routes. No cease fire. Maybe the meeting today will sort it out. A problem with the Ukrainian delegation. The exit into an EU state and then into Belarus. Due to where they are it seems they will have more difficulty getting there. Delays mentioned so ................

 

[Vinty]

it only takes a few people to create a false flag situation that can be used

A false flag that has lasted 8 years and killed around 14000.
Why doesn’t Ukraine hold a referendum and find out what people really think.

 

[bernardgreen]

Why doesn’t Ukraine hold a referendum and find out what people really think.

I think the way the majority of the population is fighting against the invasion is a clear indication of the result of a referendum.

 

[securespark]

The only real solution is to partition the country.

I'm not sure that has ever worked.

 

[Vinty]

Same in the UK, some want to be part of EU some don't. England hasn't rolled tanks into Scotland for "mutinous" Independence talk.

I thought it was Ukraine who rolled the tanks into Eastern Ukraine in 2014 to put down Russian speakers who were demanding autonomy.
Some say there is no support for these separatists, so, why doesn't the Ukrainian government hold internationally supervised referendum in the disputed region to find out if that is really the case and if it is, then the Ukranian government would have the legitimate right to suppress the rebellion.

 

[Vinty]

I think the way the majority of the population is fighting against the invasion is a clear indication of the result of a referendum.

I was talking about having a referendum in the disputed region.

 

[AngleEyes]

A false flag that has lasted 8 years and killed around 14000.
Why doesn’t Ukraine hold a referendum and find out what people really think.

I thought it was Ukraine who rolled the tanks into Eastern Ukraine in 2014 to put down Russian speakers who were demanding autonomy.
Some say there is no support for these separatists, so, why doesn't the Ukrainian government hold internationally supervised referendum in the disputed region to find out if that is really the case and if it is, then the Ukranian government would have the legitimate right to suppress the rebellion.

I was talking about having a referendum in the disputed region.

A referendum was held, under Russian military control.
It was not recognised as official nor fair by the international community.

There was never any call for independence or a referendum prior to Russia invading those regions.

 

[bernardgreen]

I thought it was Ukraine who rolled the tanks into Eastern Ukraine in 2014 to put down Russian speakers who were demanding autonomy.

Not quite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.[31] Russian citizens led the separatist movement in Donetsk from April until August 2014, and were supported by volunteers and materiel from Russia.[32][33][34] As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilize the Donbas.[35][36][37]

 

[Vinty]

A referendum was held, under Russian military control.
It was not recognised as official nor fair by the international community.

There was never any call for independence or a referendum prior to Russia invading those regions.

Why don't they have one now and let the people speak for themselves, if these people decide they are happy as part of Ukraine, then that would give the Ukranian government the legitimacy it lacks.

 

[Vinty]

Not quite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.[31] Russian citizens led the separatist movement in Donetsk from April until August 2014, and were supported by volunteers and materiel from Russia.[32][33][34] As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilize the Donbas.[35][36][37]

How do you know the above is true.
Are you claiming that the Russians are attacking ethnic Russians in the Donbas.

 

[JohnD]

I thought it was Ukraine who rolled the tanks into Eastern Ukraine in 2014 to put down Russian speakers who were demanding autonomy.

did you really "think" that?

where do you get these stories by the Putin propaganda department?