Vive La France!

[Odds]

The FSRH, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG), the Royal College of Midwives (RCM), Marie Stopes, the National Unplanned Pregnancy Advisory Service (NUPAS), the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), and the British Society for Abortion Care Providers (BSACP), have written a joint letter to Secretary of State for Health and Social Care Matt Hancock, to appeal for the temporary amendment of the Abortion Act 1967.

As you are aware, the current law on abortion requires that two doctors provide signatures to certify that the abortion being carried out does not breach the terms of the Abortion Act 1967. These signatures are all that stands between healthcare professionals and the threat of a life sentence for performing an abortion outside the law. In the next 13 weeks, 88,000 signatures will be needed for abortions prior to 12 weeks’ gestation.

It is important to note that this requirement is legal and not clinical – that many Early Medical Abortion services are nurse- and midwife-led, that these healthcare professionals are qualified, experienced, and registered with the Nursing and Midwifery Council. Despite being the people who meet face to face with women, that take medical histories, that obtain informed consent to treatment, that hand over the medication, they are legally unable to certify an abortion.

fsrh.org
(March 2020)

 

[Odds]

Doctors and other healthcare staff should not report suspected illegal abortions to the police as prosecutions are never in the public interest, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has said. In an intervention on Monday that will trigger further debate on the decriminalisation of abortion, Dr Ranee Thakar, the president of the professional body, said “outdated and antiquated” abortion laws meant women were left vulnerable to criminal investigation.

The RCOG’s new guidance to health staff comes amid concern over an increase in the number of investigations and prosecutions of women who have sought or had abortions. Since 2022, at least six women have been taken to court and dozens have been investigated for allegedly ending their pregnancies outside the legal requirements covering abortion. In the previous 20 years, just three women were prosecuted.

Abortions in England must be approved by two doctors and take place within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Otherwise, it is illegal to deliberately end a pregnancy and, under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act, it carries a maximum punishment of life imprisonment. Terminations after 10 weeks are carried out in a hospital or clinic.

A government spokesperson said: “It is important that all women have access to safe and legal abortions on the NHS, which now includes taking abortion pills at home. We understand this is an extremely sensitive issue and we recognise the strongly held views on all sides of the discussion. That is why, by longstanding convention, any change to the law in this area would be a matter of conscience for individual MPs rather than the government.”

The Guardian
(January 2024)

 

[noseall]

Has the law changed since then?

No. The two doctors approval thing is still current.

MBK is still in denial and is still has a poor grasp of UK law.

 

[noseall]

Perhaps MBK ought to sue folk using the word 'approve' when describing the two doctors thing. He'd be very busy....

Currently the law in England, Wales and Scotland states that – emergencies aside –two doctors must approve a woman's request for an abortion before it is allowed to proceed. Under this system, a woman seeking an abortion must have two doctors who agree that her physical or mental health and wellbeing are at risk if she carries on with the pregnancy.
read more

NHS nurses and midwives should be able to approve abortions, report argues​

read more

In the United Kingdom, the process for obtaining an abortion typically involves the two doctors’ approval. Let me explain:

1. Abortion Act 1967:
   • The Abortion Act 1967 governs abortion procedures in the UK.
   • According to this law, two registered medical practitioners (doctors) must certify in good faith that specific grounds for an abortion have been met.
   • The doctor responsible for the procedure is legally required to notify the Chief Medical Officer within 14 days of the termination12.
2. Two Doctors’ Approval:
   • Under the two doctors’ rule, both doctors must agree that the woman’s physical or mental health and well-being are at risk if she continues with the pregnancy.
   • This approval is necessary before an abortion can proceed34.

A.I. (Copilot).

There are thousands of examples, including many legal (solicitors etc) that use the word approve, when describing the two doctors thing. If signing the HSA1 form and consenting to the abortion is not approval - then what is?

"show me where it uses the word approve in the act' lol.

 

[motorbiking]

Women should no longer have to obtain the signatures of two doctors to have an early abortion, and the upper time limit for the procedure should remain at 24 weeks, doctors' leaders said yesterday.

In evidence to an inquiry by MPs into abortion law ahead of possible amendments to legislation later this autumn the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says the legal requirement for two signatures in the first three months of pregnancy is "anachronistic" except in very complex cases, and should be scrapped. The recommendation represents a shift in position by the college, which has not previously challenged the current law on the issue.

It brings the college into line with the British Medical Association, whose evidence to the inquiry by the Commons science and technology committee states that abortion should be available to women in the first trimester on the basis of "informed consent", and without the need for the permission of two doctors. In practice, the requirement does not stop women having an abortion but can cause delays that lead to distress, the college argues.

Lucy Ward@the Guardian.com
(October 2007)

Has the law changed since then?

Yes it was amended in 2007, 2013 and 2022. These changes included where terminations could take place and the introduction of being able to terminate at home in the first 10 weeks and or get the medication by post.

 

[noseall]

Yes it was amended in 2007, 2013 and 2022. These changes included where terminations could take place and the introduction of being able to terminate at home in the first 10 weeks and or get the medication by post.

Two doctors approval is still required. HSA1 filled online and can be done remotely (Covid). Abortion Act still applies.

 

[noseall]

Has the law changed since then?

The law was amended mainly due to Covid.

The Abortion Act still applies as does the two doctors approval.

 

[motorbiking]

Doctors and other healthcare staff should not report suspected illegal abortions to the police as prosecutions are never in the public interest, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has said. In an intervention on Monday that will trigger further debate on the decriminalisation of abortion, Dr Ranee Thakar, the president of the professional body, said “outdated and antiquated” abortion laws meant women were left vulnerable to criminal investigation.

The RCOG’s new guidance to health staff comes amid concern over an increase in the number of investigations and prosecutions of women who have sought or had abortions. Since 2022, at least six women have been taken to court and dozens have been investigated for allegedly ending their pregnancies outside the legal requirements covering abortion. In the previous 20 years, just three women were prosecuted.

Abortions in England must be approved by two doctors and take place within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Otherwise, it is illegal to deliberately end a pregnancy and, under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act, it carries a maximum punishment of life imprisonment. Terminations after 10 weeks are carried out in a hospital or clinic.

A government spokesperson said: “It is important that all women have access to safe and legal abortions on the NHS, which now includes taking abortion pills at home. We understand this is an extremely sensitive issue and we recognise the strongly held views on all sides of the discussion. That is why, by longstanding convention, any change to the law in this area would be a matter of conscience for individual MPs rather than the government.”

The Guardian
(January 2024)

It makes sense to expand the scope of those who can complete the paperwork.. but it might be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
- Doctors routinely pre-fill the forms, batch sign them and sign them blank and frequently without examining the woman. HSA4 is the online version of notification. There is no online version of HSA1
- Most women who want a termination get one in 2 weeks some 200,000+ every year

 

[Odds]

The law was amended mainly due to Covid.

The Abortion Act still applies as does the two doctors approval.

Abortions in England must be approved by two doctors and take place within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Otherwise, it is illegal to deliberately end a pregnancy and, under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act, it carries a maximum punishment of life imprisonment. Terminations after 10 weeks are carried out in a hospital or clinic.

Clear as day, i'd say. This is under review as Dame Diana Johnson seeks to decriminalise the law.

bpas-campaigns.org

 

[motorbiking]

Two doctors approval is still required. HSA1 filled online and can be done remotely (Covid). Abortion Act still applies.

wrong again

The law was amended mainly due to Covid.

The Abortion Act still applies as does the two doctors approval.

and again

I approve that Noseall continues to play the idiot. oh wait., is approve the right word - who cares just semantics.

 

[noseall]

It makes sense to expand the scope of those who can complete the paperwork

Let's hope they do. The two doctors approval thing need ammending.

 

[motorbiking]

How about we amend it so that they only have to give an opinion in good faith - would that work for you?

 

[noseall]

wrong again
and again

I approve that Noseall continues to play the idiot. oh wait., is approve the right word - who cares just semantics.

It must REALLY hurt a supposed law expert, being wrong on UK law. Especially being shown up by a builder and a womans' magazine, lol.

 

[Odds]

However,as MBK points out, the law as it stands is adequate for legal terminations under 24 weeks after medical advice signed off by two doctors who approve the procedure. Changing the law to extend this period endangers the life of an unborn child.

 

[motorbiking]

it absolutely would, if it were true

It must REALLY hurt a supposed law expert, being wrong on UK law. Especially being shown up by a builder and a womans' magazine, lol.

The problem is - we still don't know what you wanted to change when you started this thread and why you think the UK setup is inferior to France. Have you come up with any thoughts on that yet?