Vive La France!

[noseall]

and 2 signatures prove it.

..approves it.

 

[JonathanM]

91
I think we have to understand this in its historical context. Abortion is quite unique because under the Offences Against the Person Act abortion is still illegal in this country, which means that if you commit an illegal abortion you can go to prison for 14 years. The reason there are two doctors in the Act has nothing to do with medicine or safety but everything to do with legality.[115]

So tell me what would happen in the situation where two doctors reach the opinion that the grounds for abortion are made out. They both write this down in their notes which are read by a third doctor who carries out the abortion. But no forms are signed and the third doctor goes ahead with the abortion anyway? Is the abortion legal? What offences have been committed?

I never mind being wrong, so be as brutal as you want!

 

[Justin Passing]

..approves it.

Indeed.
"Approve it."
No time for correction of typos here...!

 

[JonathanM]

Struck off. 14 years in nick.

I disagree. The penalty is a fine on scale 5.

Any person who wilfully contravenes or wilfully fails to comply with the requirements of regulations under subsection (1) of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F5level 5 on the standard scale].

 

[Justin Passing]

But no forms are signed and the third doctor goes ahead with the abortion anyway? Is the abortion legal? What offences have been committed?

Not legal. The abortionist does not have the approvals necessary. I dunno what bit of legi covers that - oh scale/ 5 apparently.

Same as if they cut your leg off when you said no, I guess.

 

[denso13]

Is the abortion legal?

Probably, if not nothing will happen.

What offences have been committed?

No idea.

Can you answer any of my questions?

 

[JonathanM]

I don't really care, that's an MBK deflection

It really isn't. What I am doing is trying to apply the law in a logical, unbiased way. I am trying to work out which laws have been broken and what the penalties are. And at the end I am more than happy to be wrong. I am one of those strange people who prefers a discussion to an argument.

 

[JonathanM]

Can you answer any of my questions?

Is it the same question I have answered twice already about what happens if the doctors don't agree the grounds are made out?

 

[denso13]

Is it the same question I have answered twice already about what happens if the doctors don't agree the grounds are made out?

Apologies if you have, I must have missed it. I'm not being funny, what post was it? It's late and I've had a quick look.

 

[JonathanM]

And they convey their conclusions by telepathy or what? Are they able to put a date on those thoughts?

They would usually write it in their notes.

 

[JonathanM]

Apologies if you have, I must have missed it. I'm not being funny, what post was it? It's late and I've had a quick look.

I answered it days ago and then again tonight. To paraphrase, I said that if two doctors don't reach the opinion that the case meets the requirements, then there can't be a legal abortion.

 

[denso13]

I answered it days ago and then again tonight. To paraphrase, I said that if two doctors don't reach the opinion that the case meets the requirements, then there can't be a legal abortion.

And do you think that is de facto approval to proceed, or not? It is what the discussion has been for a long time now.

 

[JonathanM]

And do you think that is de facto approval to proceed, or not? It is what the discussion has been for a long time now.

That is a separate discussion which I have not been involved with and have very little interest in.

 

[denso13]

That is a separate discussion which I have not been involved with and have very little interest in.

Ok.

 

[JonathanM]

Not legal. The abortionist does not have the approvals necessary. I dunno what bit of legi covers that

This is the bit where, I believe, people are getting confused.

You have to go back and look at where the offence comes from. It is found in s58 of the Offences Against the Person Act. Then S1 of the Abortion Act goes on to say:

a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith [etc.]

The important issue, from my reading of the Act, is that it is the reaching of that opinion which negates the offence under the Offences Against the Person Act. Not the writing it down on form HSA1. There may be another offence committed of going ahead with an abortion without an HSA1. I haven't seen this anywhere. There may be professional misconduct. But it is not an illegal abortion, as far as I can see. It's a pretty short piece of legislation and not that complicated. I am sure I am correct here.