Vive La France!

[noseall]

That’s a procedural breakdown, a side issue to the point being discussed.

In your scenario, abortion hasn’t been approved so the system shouldn’t have allowed a doctor to be booked for the abortion.


I’m not sure how you think there is any connection to the requirement for 2 doctors to sign and approve and what follows. Whatever follows doesn’t alter the act of approval by signing the form.

I doubt there is a legit doctor that would risk an abortion without the HSA1 approval. The consequences are severe - potentially 14 years in clink.

 

[noseall]

where's the beef?

I have no beef.

Did you read my opening post?

Nice to see sense in a country that actually cares about women and their rights and their freedom to chooses their own destiny.

Those right wing idiots across the pond with their religious babble and hatred of women, it's refreshing to the French leading the way.

No boeuf there laddie.

 

[Notch7]

This is the bit where, I believe, people are getting confused.

You have to go back and look at where the offence comes from. It is found in s58 of the Offences Against the Person Act. Then S1 of the Abortion Act goes on to say:



The important issue, from my reading of the Act, is that it is the reaching of that opinion which negates the offence under the Offences Against the Person Act. Not the writing it down on form HSA1. There may be another offence committed of going ahead with an abortion without an HSA1. I haven't seen this anywhere. There may be professional misconduct. But it is not an illegal abortion, as far as I can see. It's a pretty short piece of legislation and not that complicated. I am sure I am correct here.

The only way to show “reaching of that opinion” is by completing and signing HSA1…if they don’t sign, they haven’t approved.

Signing the form is the approval.


Whether there is any offence committed or not, by an abortion performed when HSA1 hasn’t been signed is not related to 2 doctors needing to sign the form to approve the abortion.

If a judge finds somebody guilty and hands down a prison sentence, if the prisoner escapes prison at a later stage, it’s got nothing to do with the judge or the court.

 

[noseall]

This is the bit where, I believe, people are getting confused.

Not especially, only MBK.

The law is distinct and explicit - two doctors honest (in good faith) opinion - signatures on the forms - abortion approved.


Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

 

[Odds]

I have no beef.

Did you read my opening post?

No boeuf there laddie.

Then the law needs nothing added and nothing taken away...
...or will we need Doctor Who to verify this is indeed the case?

 

[motorbiking]

I actually believe MBK is correct on this technical point.

Say two doctors both consider a woman's case and conclude that the requirements for abortion are met. But one of the doctors forgets to complete the HSA1. And then the abortion goes ahead anyway. There has been no offence committed under the Offences Against the Person Act.

The penalty instead is under s2 of the Abortion Act and is much less harsh, and only if it willful.

correct - and the example you give is not wilful. (i.e. deliberate)

 

[motorbiking]

That the thing that makes an abortion legal is two doctors coming to the conclusion that one of the grounds is made out. It is still a legal abortion, even if they don't sign the forms.

bingo 100% correct.

Noseall confuses the exemptions under the abortion act with regulation requiring the forms to be signed. It is the forming of opinion in good faith that is the requirement.

 

[motorbiking]

So tell me what would happen in the situation where two doctors reach the opinion that the grounds for abortion are made out. They both write this down in their notes which are read by a third doctor who carries out the abortion. But no forms are signed and the third doctor goes ahead with the abortion anyway? Is the abortion legal? What offences have been committed?

I never mind being wrong, so be as brutal as you want!

the abortion is lawful.

 

[motorbiking]

I doubt there is a legit doctor that would risk an abortion without the HSA1 approval. The consequences are severe - potentially 14 years in clink.

nonsense..

1. it happens quite a lot according to various sources
2. the failure to sign has to be wilful
3. Its a fine

sec 2,3 of the act..Any person who wilfully contravenes or wilfully fails to comply with the requirements of regulations under subsection (1) of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F5level 5 on the standard scale

Jeez for someone so adamant he is right, you don't research much. 14 years in clink. my arse

 

[motorbiking]

Not especially, only MBK.

The law is distinct and explicit - two doctors honest (in good faith) opinion - signatures on the forms - abortion approved.


Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

your source again is neither case law, nor law.

 

[motorbiking]

The only way to show “reaching of that opinion” is by completing and signing HSA1…if they don’t sign, they haven’t approved.

Signing the form is the approval.


Whether there is any offence committed or not, by an abortion performed when HSA1 hasn’t been signed is not related to 2 doctors needing to sign the form to approve the abortion.

If a judge finds somebody guilty and hands down a prison sentence, if the prisoner escapes prison at a later stage, it’s got nothing to do with the judge or the court.

There is no need to approve anything. The form is even called a certificate of opinion. Failure to sign the form does not make the abortion illegal. It's the forming of opinion that makes it legal. A judge is not going the hand a prison sentence to someone who failed to fill out a form.

Sec 2,3 of the act says the failure must be wilful and the penalty is a level 5 fine - that a pretty big fine potentially.

 

[Notch7]

bingo 100% correct.

Noseall confuses the exemptions under the abortion act with regulation requiring the forms to be signed. It is the forming of opinion in good faith that is the requirement.

And signing the form is the approval.

If HSA1 is not signed, it can’t get sent on in the process so no abortion.

You are wrong
You keep being wrong
It’s your choice to be wrong
Just stop trying to claim you are right, you are not

 

[Notch7]

There is no need to approve any

Signing the form is aporoval

Not signing the form is not approval

The form is even called a certificate of opinion

That’s right, if the doctors opinion is the abortion does not comply, then they don’t approve the abortion so they don’t sign the form.

The opinion is the judgement
The signing is the approval

Failure to sign the form does not make the abortion illegal

So what

Failing to sign the form means it’s not been approved


MBK, it’s not our fault you are wrong, you just need to stop trying to claim everybody else is wrong.

You are beginning to sound like Trump claiming he won the election
You are beginning to sound like the Conservative govt pushing through legislation claiming an unsafe country is safe.

 

[motorbiking]

I'm 100% correct, but it's a massive climb down for you and Noseall. JonathanM had a read, got his head around it, in about 5 minutes. Why can't you.

 

[Notch7]

Sec 2,3 of the act says the failure must be wilful and the penalty is a level 5 fine - that a pretty big fine potentially

So what

Signing the form is the approval

Please tell me what happens if form HSA1 does not get signed….does the abortion go ahead?