Wales becomes Trumpton

[motorbiking]

From your link above:

OLD HWC

**** BLANK ****

H2 NEW HWC

"At a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning".


That is a change.

Common sense has always been if someone was crossing you would let them continue to cross. Previously people waiting cross a junction would typically wait for the car to pass before crossing.

New rules impose changed requirement for vehicles to stop before turning to allow those pedestrians waiting to cross to go first.

That was never in the highway code before, ergo the change I was taking about originally. Ironically I was suggesting these changes might have influenced the stats (so that the speed limits alone may not be the only factor for reduced accidents in Wales), so I was supporting your premise...but you seem to want to argue with everyone.

Yes I understood what you were saying. But the Highway Code was just being updated with more emphasis. There haven’t been any new statutes relating to the rewording.

Cars have always had to give way to pedestrians. If a pedestrian crosses the road and the car can stop but doesn’t the driver will cop the liability. It’s been like that for decades.

Old rule 170 “watch out for” new wording “give way to”.

 

[ajohn]

So speeding convictions rise each year yet the number of casualties is constant or falling?

Yes depending on how they are looked at. Deaths are more static over shorter periods, Statistics - seems 32% of speeding offences were in Essex in 22. Similar in 21.

23 and they get even higher. Maybe booking more looks to be a good idea. I recollect a really big increase in booking when a speed limit was applied to road works on the M42. Some one worked out the revenue. It was enormous. Accidents unlikely to figure.

Old style speed cameras. Generally they don't get reloaded with fresh film. Reason - not collecting enough revenue to cover the costs. Complaints that people slow down when they go past them. Interesting as usually it wont be by all that much. Oxford - you may find cameras that detect speed as a car is approaching as the newer methods do.

One of the death dips early 2000's may be due to the safety camera and other methods blitz. Fell out of favour as always placed where people were bound to be caught as unaware of the camera. Fine in some cases but OTT in others. My brothers case for instance. 30mph limits and he didn't notice the cameras and wont have been driving that fast. I've seen others similar. In Pembrokeshire. Local radio started telling people when the camera was out. Lots caught for being a bit over 30mph. One that got me. Motorway. Very early warning about a speed limit miles ahead. When I got there they had used the sort of signage usually used on side roads. i hadn't been exceeding the m way limit. Suddenly need to be doing 40, Now cameras are more likely to just come out from time to time. I assume to retain the deaths and reported accident numbers.

Last one I saw near me. First a dual carriageway that was mostly 40 for years and then changed to 30. It comes to an island which slows traffic down. One of the exits leads to a side road to retail centre. It's straight. Camera far into the distance checking for 30mph. Traffic light control on the entrance to the retail park also light controlled pedestrian crossing. People way more likely to see the camera van by the time they get to the retail park turn off. Sensible checking? I;d say it hardly caught any.

So they want another dip death and reported accidents. Will 20mph achieve that. I'd say it depends where they are. it would cause traffic chaos on some 30mph roads that are often congested any way. Even mess up flow when traffic lights are used to control that. Important for me as it means that I can easily get my car off the frontage onto the road and it's also important for users of the many side roads running off it for a large proportion of a day. At other times parts may choke up. I don't much care if they are doing 30 or 40. A speed indicator sign has reduced the 40mph merchants. Accidents at my end of the road are rather rare. As soon as anything like that happens the road chokes up. May also happen due to deliveries.

Personally I think the camera blitz has changed driving behaviour especially on motorways. Some 30 and 40 are easy to check but I seldom see signs that they are being. Maybe they are in Essex.

 

[ajohn]

Old rule 170 “watch out for” new wording “give way to”.

So now I see a pedestrian standing on the corner on a road I intend to turn into. What do I do? On the face of it give way. I do tend to notice if they are looking.

 

[motorbiking]

As we should all know with the HWC. Should = guidance, Must = statute.

Since he is standing ready to cross, you should anticipate that he may do so. That has always been the case. If he crosses and you hit him, you'll have a lot of bother, not to mention any injuries and damage.

Inexperienced motorcyclists may struggle to stop and give way in that situation as they will likely be relying on angular momentum generated by moving to keep them upright as they make the turn. Applying the front brake while turning, may cause the front wheel to wash out in wet/slippery conditions.

 

[kingandy2nd]

Yes I understood what you were saying. But the Highway Code was just being updated with more emphasis. There haven’t been any new statutes relating to the rewording.

Cars have always had to give way to pedestrians. If a pedestrian crosses the road and the car can stop but doesn’t the driver will cop the liability. It’s been like that for decades.

Old rule 170 “watch out for” new wording “give way to”.

So you are wrong. The HWC changed.

 

[Andydevon]

@ajohn some good points and to add into the pot is the increase in safety ratings of cars and those now include pedestrian elements in the measures.

 

[ajohn]

As we should all know with the HWC. Should = guidance, Must = statute.

I would say it's purely aimed at situations where a car is making a left hand turn and the pedestrian is travelling in the same direction. ie situations where the car wont be seen by the pedestrians as they are not looking in that direction. The old look left look right etc road crossing doesn't work.

A driver has to consider distances and speed of both to the point where a collision could occur. The change to me indicates an attempt to over ride this aspect to some degree. To be effective if actually needed a driver would need over compensate and allow the pedestrian to continue walking. Since the introduction I have seen a person just standing on a corner and not moving. Tricky. A couple of times now and I don't drive all that much around where I live. Most of my mileage is distance related to a huge degree.

A car came near to hitting me at a crossroads. Waits for a gap to cross and accelerates like mad without noticing I was walking across the opposite road, When I started that he wasn't moving but a car stopped to allow him to cross. All he was looking at was car movement.

 

[ajohn]

I think there is a better answer. Similar to what the police do with crime. They look for clusters. The same could be done with accidents even minor ones if insurance companies data was included. An IT job. Similar to speeding in the SE when the booking rate couldn't match the ticket issue rate on a motorway. They automated it. Not really related but it amused me. They could also fit simple speed monitoring kit from time to time on various types of road. This sort of data could really determine what is going on and where.

Installing the signs that indicate actual speed seems to have come to a halt.

There can be another factor as well. I'm thinking of crash barriers on part of the M5. Something that had never happened before. An HGV went through them. Result immediate change to concrete. for some reason they appear to have changed them again. However there are lots of fast roads that have armco or even the cheaper wire type. What should be the reaction to what are essentially one offs? Humans and mechanics means it's doubtful if zero accidents are possible.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Surely the common sense approach for pedestrians who are getting ready to cross at a junction is to look for approaching vehicles and if there are any, to wait for them to pass? Even more so when considering vehicles that are entering into the road being crossed. Obviously in scenarios where there is a constant queue of vehicles e.g. waiting to exit a busy junction and no zebra crossing, the pedestrian would be better placed moving to a safe place to cross i.e. away from the junction, or if not possible, to only cross when the stationary queue of vehicles are exactly that i.e. stationary with no likelihood of movement.

Tbh I think the onus should be more on the pedestrian to wait, given they will almost always lose in a game of pedestrian and vehicle contact.

Further, and yes I know this is a failure of drivers to pay due attention, if a vehicle in front indicates to enter another road, slows, starts to turn at the junction and then stops mid way with its arse still on the road it's exiting from, what's more likely to happen if there's a vehicle behind it?

In typing the above, don't interpret it as me saying drivers and their vehicles are more important, I'm simply thinking of what real world driving is actually like and what pedestrians should do to protect themselves.

 

[motorbiking]

If you crash into the car in front, because he stopped turning left and had to give way to a pedestrian, then its driving without due care.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

If you crash into the car in front, because he stopped turning left and had to give way to a pedestrian, then its driving without due care.

Did you see this bit in my post?

and yes I know this is a failure of drivers to pay due attention

 

[motorbiking]

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with you pov.

 

[noseall]

Experienced my first 20mph this weekend (Surrey). No dramas. Going one way we were in a traffic jam, going back I was leading with a Jag tight up my rear bumper on the way back. The interesting bit was actually when we were in the traffic jam, waiting to turn right at some lights. The missus was trying to get me to go over, before the lights changed, and into stationary traffic. I declined. Found out later that all those stationary inside the yellow hatching, received a £88(?) fine.

 

[motorbiking]

I assume you were attempting to turn right on the yellow box junction?

You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

All those who supposedly got fines should appeal.

A lot aren’t legal too

The Box | Yellow Box Guru

Yellow box PCN - things to check for the box

www.yellowboxes.co.uk

Probably best to let mrs noseall drive next time.

 

[denso13]

Found out later that all those stationary inside the yellow hatching, received a £88(?) fine.

Quite right too, tossers...