We need to talk about Kevin, sorry, I mean ban-all-sheds

[skotl]

I really don't see the point of this thread. I have read the op a few times and am bemused.

With apologies to Lionel Shriver, we can't keep burying our heads in the sand when it comes to ban-all-sheds ("bas").
Another thread was deleted, partly I'm sure, due to personal insults directed to bas by me. Do you mean he insulted you?

Can we please have a grown up conversation about bas' contribution to this sub-forum? To what end?

I can be objective and, as long as the mods contribute, I'm happy to bow to the collective will of the majority on here. What do you want the majority to decide?

On balance, I do not believe that bas is a positive influence within the Electrics UK sub-forum. I don't believe that his intention is to help address posters' questions, nor do I believe that he holds the interest of the OP or the membership at large in any regard. I take he has upset you recently. I don't have any issue with him. If you don't like what he has written, ignore it. If he is replying to somebody else, why is it your problem anyway?

Over the eight years that I have been a member of diynot I have received an enormous amount of help from members in various sub-fora but, within Electrics UK, it has been a constant battle. bas really personifies this sub-forum - what he agrees with, goes, and what he disagrees with is beaten into submission. This either happens directly because he makes the OP go away, or through attrition because everyone else just gives up when faced with the misery of multi-quote after multi-quote. Do you really think the biggest problem is bas replying to a post? I would say that the biggest problem is when a post arrives asking for advice and (usually with the first 4 replies) the 'discussion' verers of an a tangent and stays there for the rest of the thread.

My projected position is that the Electrics UK forum is effectively ruled by bas, and that is unhealthy. From a diynot perspective (and I stand to be corrected) I don't think that a single member has this much of a stranglehold on any other sub-forum...?

How does that work? I am not aware of bas having the power to delete threads/posts or remove acounts from the site. Assuming you are not 5, you have the fre will to ignore bas, or take part in any discussion with him.

To the crux of my post;

1. I'd like to understand other members' positions on bas' input, ideally with a black-or-white view on whether he helps or hinders the Electrics UK community
2. I'd like to see the moderators' view on where bas fits into this, probably based on the answers to #1

It would be easy to see this as a personal attack, (do you think, I'd say if somebody hinted that I was a sociopath, who is likely to take a bow and arrow into a school to massacre the students, I may be inclined to take that as a personal attack. Just saying) and therefore a straight-to-deletion thread but as my topic title suggests; we have an elephant in the room.
bas has been allowed to grow into the unofficial arbiter of what we are allowed to discuss on here, (how does he manipulate the site as you suggest?)and that's not fair on the OPs nor on the prolific posters (many of whom have far more experience, and are far more helpful than bas).

This is a debate that needs to happen. If it's quashed then my tiny voice, along with many, many OPs with two posts, will give up and move elsewhere.
If bas posted this, would this just reinforce your view that he controls the site? If it does, look up the word irony.
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I would say that this an internet forum. It is here to help people out and provide an area to discuss Electrics in the UK. If you don;t want to read what bas (or anybody else) posts, don't read them. As in the outside world, there are times when people have a strong opinion and refuse to back down. It is a basic human trait. I persoanlly have no issue with bas. If the majority in here do, then so what. If the underlying requiremnt is get bas kicked off the site, how does that square with accusing him of demanding some kind of super status. It's a chatroom, so enjoy the banter and let the things that matter get you perplexed.

Thanks for taking the time to read my OP and respond in kind.
No, bas hasn't specifically upset or annoyed me but the cumulative effect of his contribution just frustrates the hell out of me.

You suggest that I should just ignore him and that's clearly an option for me. But I've been on here for many years and what I do see on a weekly (not daily) basis is that he drives away new posters.
In a nutshell, I think his net contribution to this forum is negative and I genuinely believe that more people would glean the advice they want or need, and return if they have further questions, if bas (in his current incarnation) was not present.

You also asked "to what end (...did I write the OP)?" - I would be delighted if bas altered the way he responded to posts and became more consistent in his desire to help people. Cards on the table; if he can't change the way he operates I would personally be delighted if he found some other place to vent his opinions that on here. Or he was banned.
Like I say, I believe his net contribution is negative.

We upbraid bas in certain posts and appeal to his better nature, but to no positive effect. As per the title, this is a topic that I think needs to be discussed because bas (despite your counter-argument, in my opinion) decides which threads can be gerrymandered / talked out / shut down purely by his belittling regurgitation of his point until everyone else gives up.

 

[skotl]

There's someone in the plumbing section who is heading the same way .BAS is not unique. Perhaps we just need to remember how he is and not wind him up? It is a bit unfair having a go at him in "public"

Is it reasonable for us all (including first-time posters) to walk on eggshells so that we don't wind him up?

We very frequently try to reason with the chap to try to get him to rein in his methods. I'm trying to be upfront and bring the discussion to the fore, including bas. As someone mentioned a while back; he's like marmite; but even bas must be able to read between these lines and see that a significant percentage of people don't appreciate the manner in which he approaches many threads.

If I'm correct in that assertion (and this thread is partly to prove or disprove that assertion) then I would, at the very least, hope that the clearly intelligent bas would be capable of some introspection.

 

[skotl]

Scroll scroll scroll..


Jesus f Christ...

Indeed.

Maybe the title for the next thread should read 'We need to talk about Skotl'...

Issues, issues, issues...

Aye - fair enough.

I'm not on here enough to let any of this bother me unduly, other than when I'm actually on here. It's clearly not a secret that I have an issue with bas in particular, and I have tried to explain what these issues are.
Listen, if it turns out that I'm in the minority and most people are happy to let bas continue as he is then so be it - but, as the topic title says, I think it merited a discussion.

 

[TonyW2]

SAVE OUR BAS campaign.
I have every respect for any contributor willing to participate in an open forum and I have the ability to arrive at my own conclusion about their personality, knowledge and usefulness of their contribution.
I have more concerns about those who would attempt to ban an intellectually stimulating, polite and knowledgeable contributor.
Those who are too thin skinned to receive his pertinent comments should stay, absorb and benefit.
SOB campaign---------- Vote by clicking like here.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But I've been on here for many years and what I do see on a weekly (not daily) basis is that he drives away new posters.

Please show how I do that. Note when doing so that you must be 100% factual, and that anything which relies on you inventing things which you don't like is inadmissible.

I would personally be delighted if he found some other place to vent his opinions that on here.

Which opinions of mine do you think are unacceptable to be expressed here?

We upbraid bas in certain posts and appeal to his better nature, but to no positive effect.

To whom should I listen?

People like you?

People who freely admit that they, and others, gang up on me for their own amusement?

People who believe that it is perfectly acceptable to criticise me for what I have written even though they haven't bothered to read it?

I don't think so.

bas (despite your counter-argument, in my opinion) decides which threads can be gerrymandered / talked out / shut down purely by his belittling regurgitation of his point until everyone else gives up.

How does reiterating an argument, continuing to try and get my point across, qualify as denigrating someone or something? Please provide an intelligent and rational explanation.

Also please explain why if I don't "give up" I am at fault, but if others don't and I do then that is the right outcome.

It's clearly not a secret that I have an issue with bas in particular,

Nor that you believe that that personal animosity should be a reason to get me banned.

and I have tried to explain what these issues are.

No - you have tried to express your unsubstantiated beliefs. You have not tried to provide any evidence on which you have based them.

 

[JohnW2]

... he can be blunt and to the point but his information is never dangerous and he never encourages risk taking.

Very true - his information/advice is certainly never dangerous and he even more certainly never encourages risk taking. However, what he almost certainly does do is to 'frighten off' some OPs, some of whom undoubtedly go away and muddle along doing dangerous things because they have not received any practical advice (other than 'get an electrician' or 'read this dozen books'), and he certainly often 'discourages' (often worse) others who attempt to give advice which might make things less dangerous (than 'muddling along without advice') for an OP.

I don't want him banned. As has so often been said, by slightly changing his approach and style, he could get his points across much more effectively, wouldn't intimidate people and, above all, would, at least in some cases, make things 'safer' (less dangerous) for some OPs than is the case when he uses his 'intimidating' approach (albeit not deliberately, and with good intentions).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, what he almost certainly does do is to 'frighten off' some OPs, some of whom undoubtedly go away and muddle along doing dangerous things because they have not received any practical advice (other than 'get an electrician' or 'read this dozen books')

THAT

IS

THE

ONLY

ADVICE

WHICH

IS

IS

APPROPRIATE.


I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, in the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" principle.

I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, that nothing less than true understanding is necessary.

I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, that muddling along is wrong, and should never be encouraged, facilitated or in any way given any seal of approval or tolerance.

and he certainly often 'discourages' (often worse) others who attempt to give advice which might make things less dangerous (than 'muddling along without advice') for an OP.

Damned right I do, because anything which helps, or encourages people to carry out electrical work by following instructions which they do not actually understand is wrong and is not in the best interests of the OP.

 

[JohnW2]

However, what he almost certainly does do is to 'frighten off' some OPs, some of whom undoubtedly go away and muddle along doing dangerous things because they have not received any practical advice (other than 'get an electrician' or 'read this dozen books')

THAT IS THE ONLY ADVICE WHICH IS IS APPROPRIATE.

That, IMO, illustrates the problem.

and he certainly often 'discourages' (often worse) others who attempt to give advice which might make things less dangerous (than 'muddling along without advice') for an OP.

Damned right I do, because anything which helps, or encourages people to carry out electrical work by following instructions which they do not actually understand is wrong and is not in the best interests of the OP.

No-one can argue with what you say as an ideal. However, in the real world, whether or not that actually is 'in the best interests of the OP' depends upon what alternatives the OP is contemplating (or being 'driven to'). Although you will probably say that, as a matter of principle, that is "not your problem", that doesn't really serve an OP's interests.

If someone has health-threatening (or life-threatening) 'lifestyle issues' (smoking, excessive drinking, drug-taking, poor diet, inadequate exercise etc. etc.) the "the only advice that it is appropriate" (and which should be given) is that those 'lifestyle issues' should be addressed. However, if a person is unwilling or unable to make the required changes, healthcare professionals are expected to do what they can to deal with the consequences or possible conbsequences, hopefully to at least reduce the ongoing risks to the person.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That, IMO, illustrates the problem.

No - it illustrates that I am right and you are wrong.


But we've had this discussion before, and it doesn't matter how many times you try to start it up you will always be wrong.

 

[bernardgreen]

I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, in the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" principle.

I totally agree, provided the man is not starving, if he is starving than give him one fish and THEN when he has eaten it teach him to fish.

Would you tell a person who as a result of an accident was bleeding to death that they should go and read up a few books on first aid ? Or wpuld you give them instructions how to stop themselves from bleeding to death.

I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, that nothing less than true understanding is necessary.

I believe, absolutely, with complete conviction, that muddling along is wrong, and should never be encouraged, facilitated or in any way given any seal of approval or tolerance.

Most people would agree with that, I do, but you must differentiate between those who have time to learn and read and those who are in need of immediate help.

Provide immediate help to people in need of immediate ( emergency help ) and those people will be much more receptive to your advice, given later, on how to learn how to do it next time before they start.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I totally agree, provided the man is not starving, if he is starving than give him one fish and THEN when he has eaten it teach him to fish.

So what's the electrical equivalent whereby if you don't get someone to do something which they don't understand, they die?

Would you tell a person who as a result of an accident was bleeding to death that they should go and read up a few books on first aid ? Or wpuld you give them instructions how to stop themselves from bleeding to death.

Will someone die if they have to learn how their lights work rather than just put-this-wire-in-that-hole-without-a-clue-as-to-why?

Most people would agree with that, I do, but you must differentiate between those who have time to learn and read and those who are in need of immediate help.

Everybody has time to learn and read, and if they do not then they have no business fiddling with their electricians and must never be given any advice apart from "get an electrician".

 

[bernardgreen]

If someone through ignorance has started electrical work which they cannot finish and as a result have no lights their house is hazardous due to darkness. They may have torches or ( dread the thought ) candles but the risk of accidents ( falls or trips ) is high. Hence they need advice how to get lights back on. Yes the sensible thing is to call an electrician to make an emergency call out but that may not be possible. ( lack of money, nearest electrician too far away. etc etc ).

So then guide them through the process to restore the lights, if not all lights at least enough to have a save house until an electrician they can afford can visit to fix it completely.

I sometimes wonder if you ( BAS ) have ever been in a situation where immediate guidance is essential. I wonder because you seem to have little appreciation of how some people can be in desperate need of help where time is of the essence.

 

[dpm_dpmartin]

I only pop along here infrequently, but I would cite this thread I started //www.diynot.com/diy/threads/intermediate-switch-es-required.416493/ as one where ban-all-sheds (and others) was helpful. I have started other threads where ban-all-sheds wasn't that helpful, more semi-comical, but I'd say that the help provided in the linked thread far outweighed the lack of help in another.

When I come along here I am pretty much like most newbies... I need help (not often immediate life-threatening help, more usually about plans to do something or products / components I need to buy, and often I need help to help me understand that I don't even know what I don't know) and anyone who contributes their own time to provide assistance, free of charge, on this forum is alright by me. I do not mind a bit of joshing and banter and correction if I get to where I need to be, safely, correctly and cost-effectively.

 

[ninjacat]

Would you tell a person who as a result of an accident was bleeding to death that they should go and read up a few books on first aid ? Or wpuld you give them instructions how to stop themselves from bleeding to death.

I am now imaging someone logging onto an internet forum with blood spurting everywhere Probably very true in this age. Surely the only advice would be "phone an b****y ambulance now"

 

[JohnW2]

I am now imaging someone logging onto an internet forum with blood spurting everywhere Probably very true in this age. Surely the only advice would be "phone an b****y ambulance now"

One assumes that has already happened. Ambulance Control staff on the phone will attempt to tell the caller what to do to avoid the person bleeding to death (or choking to death, or dying of a cardiac arrest, or whatever) before the ambulance arrives - rather than suggesting that the caller goes and reads a number of first aid manuals!

Kind Regards, John