When considering in or out:

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

As I understand it a Gibraltarian is exempt to those conditions. and has the right of abode in the UK which means they can live here and work without a visa.
They can also request to be a British Subject which cannot be turned down.

It is more complicated than that. Up to 1983, I think, you assumption was correct. After 1983, you could not marry into, or use a grandparents citizenship as claim. After 2002, you cannot claim British Citizenship and are treated as an alien. Same applies to all British Overseas Territories.

 

[Bosswhite]

Gibraltarians automatically became British Citizens on May 21 2002

If they are not British Citizens why were they involved in the EU Referendum ?

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-overseas-territories-citizen

 

[JohnD]

The loony Quitter press is hankering after the days of European wars...

"Britain's Royal Navy is substantially weaker than it was during the Falklands War but could still "cripple" Spain"

"Rear-Adml Chris Parry, a former director of operational capability at the Ministry of Defence, has called on the Government to "appropriately" invest in Britain's military capacity if it wants to "talk big" over Gibraltar."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...r-weaker-falklands-could-still-cripple-spain/

"GIBRALT-WAR
Britain could ‘cripple’ Spain if war broke out over Gibraltar and is ‘three times as powerful’ claims ex-Royal Navy commander"

"Lord Howard also compared the escalation in the overseas territory with Thatcher going to war over the Falkands"

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3235404/britain-gibraltar-spain-war-brexit/

"GIBRALT-WAR" FFS

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I do not know & I do not care .

So you recklessly post stuff on the interweb having no idea if it is true or what it means?

Yes, he does.

For example:

EU = scoundrels un-elected scoundrels.

Scoundrels some of them indeed are (take, for instance, the MEP for South East England).

But even he was elected. All the MEPs were, and so were the members of the EU Commission and the EU Council.

And, of course, this isn't a minor issue. Some of the people who voted to take us out will have done so, at least in part, because they believed the steady drip, drip, drip of lies told to them over the years by the likes of the Mail, Express, Sun etc about unelected unaccountable Brussels bureaucrats imposing laws on us and thus taking away our"sovereignty".

 

[Gerrydelasel]

But even he was elected. All the MEPs were, and so were the members of the EU Commission and the EU Council.

Comissioners are appointed not elected. The EU approves of conflating the two to disguise any watering-down of democracy.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Someone with no confidence or pride in his country.

Here you are, Roger - more things about this country to be proud of.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-a-quarter-of-a-million-children-into-poverty
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/5-tory-benefit-cuts-taking-10144250

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Comissioners are appointed not elected.

There is one per member state, nominated by those states. So you voted for ours, in just the same way that you voted for our Chancellor, our Foreign Secretary, our Home Secretary - all of our ministers, in fact.

The Commission as a whole is then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament. And you voted for your representative in that parliament in just the same way that you voted for your one in the UK one.

The EU approves of conflating the two to disguise any watering-down of democracy.

Given the above, I don't think you actually know what you mean by democracy.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

So you voted for ours, in just the same way that you voted for our Chancellor, our Foreign Secretary, our Home Secretary - all of our ministers, in fact.

They are often career politicians, not elected MPs. Comissioner Lord Hill included.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) We have had unelected UK ministers in the past. The Prime Minister (not an office elected by the people - the PM is appointed by our unelected head of state) may appoint ministers from the House of Lords (so there's your "career politicians, not elected MPs" box ticked. And he/she may appoint ministers who are not from either house. So that's another "not elected MPs" box for you.

I wonder if you think that even ministers who are MPs are not "career politicians?


2) Whose fault is it if you don't have a direct say in who your democratically elected member of the European Council nominates as the UK's member of the European Commission? Is it the EU's, or is it the way that your democratically elected government has decided to do things?

 

[Gerrydelasel]

Is it the EU's, or is it the way that your democratically elected government has decided to do things?

What an absurd question. The EU was conceived with its (deliberately instrutable) operational framework, not by our government.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is far from absurd.

You elect our member of the European Council.

That person nominates our member of the European Commission (this nomination idea, BTW, is EXACTLY the way our UK government ministers are chosen)

In what way does the EU interfere in whatever process our member of the European Council decides he or she should use to choose our member of the European Commission?

 

[Gerrydelasel]

In what way does the EU interfere in whatever process ...

It doesn't interfere with it, it is it. i.e. a deliberately convoluted system of governance that places as little responsibility in the hands of citizens as possible, is as hard to understand as possible, places basically all the legislative power* at the top level in the hands of the fewest number of unelected (or if you prefer, unaccountable) comissioners, who carry out deliberations in explicit secrecy. The higher up you go, the more removed, obfuscated, and less accountable it gets; the whole system is designed not to be transparent.

*The EU parliament is the 'legislature' in name only;it actually has no power to propose laws, only the comission does. The EU parliament is itself prohibited by law from proposing laws! It's topsy turvy. It's like giving the House of Lords the power to propose laws while the Commons can only vote on them.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Are you refusing to answer the question because you don't want to admit the truth, or because you just don't know the answer?

The members of the European Council are NOT unelected or unaccountable. They really are not. The responsibility for choosing ours lies as much in the hands of our citizens and is just as easy to understand as is choosing our Prime Minister.

And in exactly the same way that the UK chooses who its ministers are (and presumably you are quite happy with that as an exercise in democracy?) the UK therefore chooses who its member of the European Commission is. If it works in exactly the same way that it does domestically, how can you say that it is a deliberately convoluted system of governance that places as little responsibility in the hands of citizens as possible, is as hard to understand as possible, etc? Do you not understand it because you don't want to? Do you not understand it because you CBA? Do you not understand it because you equally do not understand how our government is chosen?

I will ask you again - please tell us exactly how the EU limits the freedom of action of our member of the European Council in choosing who he or she nominates as our member of the European Commission.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... carry out deliberations in explicit secrecy ...

Will you please show me where I can read minutes and other accounts of the deliberations of the UK's Cabinet Ministers, and those between ministers and the senior civil servants running their departments?

 

[Gerrydelasel]

The members of the European Council are NOT unelected or unaccountable.

No, the Comission is. The Council is the heads of state.

And in exactly the same way that the UK chooses who its ministers are

But our ministers are part of a genuine elected legislature, scrutinised by the people and the press much like an MP, and by the shadow cabinet of course. By contrast, once the Comissioner has been selected he's more or less untouchable. We don't know what he's up to. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If it works in exactly the same way that it does domestically,

So no, it does not work exactly the same at all. In the EU we get to elect the powerless people who get to select the powerful ones. It's like giving the Lords the power of the Commons, and vice versa.