When considering in or out:

[ban-all-sheds]

Okaaaayyy... you're now either trolling or being intellectually obtuse. You can't honestly believe there were literally zero reasons to leave other than arbitrary racism.

I'm afraid there weren't.

The things that leavers believed about the EU? Virtually none of them facts, as you yourself have proved.

The promises of the golden uplands of tomorrow, where we would frolic and thrive outside the EU? Either demonstrably false or so unlikely as it to be not reasonable to consider them an outcome.

The people who voted out as a protest against years of unequal treatment and cuts and being shafted by the govt? All the commentators say that many people did, but none of those things happened because of our membership of the EU, so none of them were reasons for leaving.

It really did come down to ignorance and/or racism.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

I'm afraid there weren't.
The things that leavers believed about the EU? Virtually none of them facts, as you yourself have proved.

Just off the top of my head:

1. Some taxpayers object to seding money to a surrogate government, regardless of how good value it may be;
2. Most British business is domestic or non-EU but still has to conform to EU rules even when it is redundant;
3. Some people object to the “qualified majority voting” system;
4. Some people disagree with the EU's actions and methods against climate-change and environmental issues;
5. Some people object to the EU's fisheries, agricultural, and ports policies;
6. Some people disagree with aspects of the working time directive;
7. Some people disagree with the continental approach to VAT setting;
8. Some people disagree with the EU's reliance on tariff walls, industry subsidies, corporate lobbying, and interference in market competition;
9. Some people object to bailouts -particularly when it involves cancelling an agreement not to;
10. Some people object to the way Junker, in particular, is so dismissive of anti-EU referenda;
11. Some people object to the way the court of justice has evolved into a supreme court;
12. Some people are libertarian;
13. Some people object to big government;
    
14. Some people object to an EU army;
15. Some people object to how wasteful the EU is with money;
16. Some people object to how self-aggrandising the EU is; to its glory projects;
    
17. Some people object to the aim of an integrated pan-European state;
18. Some people object to open borders;
    
19. Some people dislike that the EU is so inflexible and resistant to change or reform on these issues;

Any one of these alone would likely not be enough reason to vote Leave, I agree, but death by a thousand cuts...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Prob is that your not being morally superior. You're being a bully. Don't get the two confused.

I'm not getting them confused (nor am I being a bully).

And I really, really am morally superior to a great many people here.

They have their reasons which you will never be able to get because you are blinkered on this matter.

On balance, when you look at the racism promoted by the leavers ("regain control of our borders" IS a racist position), the ridiculous promises of things that could never happen, the demonstrably untrue things they said about the EU, the demonstrably untrue things people therefore believed about the EU, and the warnings from experts of the risks of leaving, what reasons can there be?

What process of reasoning leads to the conclusion that there really were genuine benefits to be had which would be worth the cost of leaving?

Rubbish. As soon as you go onto your rants calling brexiters racists and ******* then you create a divide.

Not so.

The second they put their X against leave they created that divide. They showed themselves to be ******* and/or racists who were quite prepared to send this country down the tubes on the basis of their ignorance and/or racism.

You stop people conversing, you stop all debate and you shut people down. This creates a 'them and me' divide and nothing moves forward.

Debate?

Show me who here can have their opinion changed by "debate"? Do you really think that you could change by "debating" the position of just one of the people here who are cheering the fact that we voted to leave, and get them to realise that they were wrong, and to regret what they did?

It is not possible to change by reasoning opinions which were not arrived at by that method in the first place.

I can't even be bothered to address that, other than to say your imagination is running riot.

The Daily Mail.
The Daily Express.
The Sun.
Nigel Farage.
Michael Gove telling people to take no notice of anybody who knows more than they.

These were their allies - these were the people about who your family said "Yup, I'm on your side".

Some more data for you on the sort of people they identified with: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...alty-yougov-results-light-bulbs-a7656791.html

That will become apparent (or not) in the fullness of time. Unless you can look into a crystal ball, you have no idea if Brexit will ruin this country. Sure, there are going to be some tough times as things change but it doesn't have to be the end.

Those "tough times" will cause extra deaths. There is clear evidence that some people have already been driven to suicide because of the hopelessness created by benefit cuts. There is clear evidence that impoverished childhoods result in worse outcomes and shorter lives when they grow up. When those "tough times" lead to even more cuts, inevitably it will lead to more deaths.

And for what?

Also, I don't mean just economic ruin.

Unlike you, I refuse to believe that 17 million people who voted leave are ignorant and/or racist because of Brexit. Unless Nigel Farage managed to put something in the water?
For starters there's the media's role,

The media's role in spreading falsehoods and creating ignorance of the truths amongst their readers and viewers? The media's role in promulgating racist views and making racism seem acceptable?

I'll give you those. Nobody is born believing things which are untrue - they have to be told them. Nobody is born a racist - they have to be taught to be one.

the misinformation by our government,

If people believe the misinformation then they have become ignorant.

austerity by our government,

Austerity by our government did not happen because of our membership of the EU. Anyone who believes it did is ignorant.

complacency by our government....

Complacency by our government did not happen because of our membership of the EU.

oh look, perhaps we should look at our government.

Indeed we should, but the things we need to hold them to account for did not happen because we are in the EU - they happened because our government made them happen for their own reasons.

Then there's Farage who did everything he could to get people to leave, even if it meant he told porkies.

And anyone who believed those porkies became ignorant.

I am not disputing the role of any of these actors in creating a state of ignorance, but help create it they did. How people came to, or remained in, a state of ignorance has no bearing on the fact that they were ignorant.

Then look at the 'project fear' and the porkies they told when they could finally be bothered to say something. Then look at the lack of understanding of exactly how many people in the UK were Eurosceptics (and why)

Don't call them Eurosceptics - they aren't, they are Europhobes.

And was their Europhobic position firmly based on facts, and truths? Or were they based on ignorance and/or racism?

and the very real lack of drive and commitment that the remainers made because it was commonly thought that the vote would be to remain. They were complacent and they played their part making it easy for Leavers to win.

That is undeniably true. I am quite sure that a better campaign would have rectified some of the ignorance and possibly even displaced some of the racism. That it didn't happen left people voting to leave because of their (uncorrected) ignorance and (unchallenged) racism.

Racism? You're blaming the wrong people. Sure there are a few racists but 17 million people didn't all suddenly become racist.

What percentage of leave voters cited "immigration" or "control of our own borders" as either the main, or an important reason for voting to leave?

Blame the people who informed the voters.

Whoever you want to blame for promoting ignorance and racism makes no difference to the fact that people voted because of those conditions. Of course they were put into those states by someone(s)/thing(s), but in it they were.

I won't even start on the fact that our government allowed the public to go to the polls without organisation or without a plan for if we left the EU.

That was unconscionable. But people did not vote to leave because of it.

But it's blind hatred, not seeing reason, not questioning the hatred and just hating. Take away the race part and you're hating people blindly, not seeing reason and just hating.

Oh, I do question it.

I question "why should I hate people who have destroyed this country?" The answers always come back the same.

It's very sad to live your life with such negativity and be careful as it can eat you up.

I do truly wish that I did not have the negativity of a ruined country imposed on my life by the ignorant and the racist, but that is out of my control.

But it isn't eating me up.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

You appear to be reaching surreal levels of hysteria...

Show me who here can have their opinion changed by "debate"? Do you really think that you could change by "debating" the position of just one of the people here who are cheering the fact that we voted to leave, and get them to realise that they were wrong, and to regret what they did?

Himmy changed my opinion on several issues. On balance I still fall on the side of leave, but not for all the same reasons I started there.

I question "why should I hate people who have destroyed this country?" The answers always come back the same.

But it is clear you're idea of 'destroyed' is simply a euphemism for 'not the result you wanted'. So yes, your hatred is irrational and blind. Your whole argument has distilled into one idea: "not having open borders is racist". Such an assertion is facile and absurd; but since it cannot have been arrived at through reason I don't expect we can change your mind.

 

[blightymam]

You appear to be reaching surreal levels of hysteria...


But it is clear you're idea of 'destroyed' is simply a euphemism for 'not the result you wanted'. So yes, your hatred is irrational and blind. Your whole argument has distilled into one idea: "not having open borders is racist". Such an assertion is facile and absurd; but since it cannot have been arrived at through reason I don't expect we can change your mind.

Yes, he does seem to have reached a new low.
Impossible to have a conversation with a person who is unreasonable. I never expected to change a mind, but I did hope to show that there are other views.

 

[Ihavenojob]

And I really, really am morally superior to a great many people here.

Delusional . Seek help urgently. I gave the same advice to Himmy/Iwannabeloved, maybe you are one & the same, schizophrenic as well?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Himmy changed my opinion on several issues. On balance I still fall on the side of leave, but not for all the same reasons I started there.

Even when presented with the facts about the European Parliament you refuse to accept them.

But it is clear you're idea of 'destroyed' is simply a euphemism for 'not the result you wanted'. So yes, your hatred is irrational and blind.

No to both of those.

My country has been diminished. It's currency is less valuable, its attractiveness to investors has lessened.
My country has been turned inward looking, not outgoing and open.
My country has been turned into one fearful of and prejudiced against foreigners.
My country has been turned into one hankering after a mythical past instead of working to make a success of a union with our closest neighbours.

So much of what I valued about this country has been destroyed by the ******* and racists.

Your whole argument has distilled into one idea: "not having open borders is racist". Such an assertion is facile and absurd; but since it cannot have been arrived at through reason I don't expect we can change your mind.

No, that is not my "one idea".

But if you think it is OK for Paul the plumber from Penzance to move to Peterborough, but it's not OK for Petar the plumber from Plovdiv to do the same, on what basis are you discriminating against Petar?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Delusional . Seek help urgently. I gave the same advice to Himmy/Iwannabeloved, maybe you are one & the same, schizophrenic as well?

No, we are not one and the same, and if you were thinking of a new career in psychoanalysis I would advise against it.

Let's take just you as a comparison.

You are prepared to see more vulnerable people die, possibly by their own hand, in order to indulge your desire to use red and black cable which you mistakenly believe the EU prevents you from doing.

So I'm more moral than you - even if it was true about cable colours I wouldn't think it was OK to buy back my freedom to use it again with people's lives.

 

[blightymam]

But if you think it is OK for Paul the plumber from Penzance to move to Peterborough, but it's not OK for Petar the plumber from Plovdiv to do the same, on what basis are you discriminating against Petar?

I'm actually proud of Britain on a whole. Contrary to what you believe, I find that Britain is a fairly easy-going and accepting country. Not just race but other socially contentious topics like same sex marriage.

 

[Ihavenojob]

No, we are not one and the same, and if you were thinking of a new career in psychoanalysis I would advise against it.

Let's take just you as a comparison.

You are prepared to see more vulnerable people die, possibly by their own hand, in order to indulge your desire to use red and black cable which you mistakenly believe the EU prevents you from doing.

So I'm more moral than you - even if it was true about cable colours I wouldn't think it was OK to buy back my freedom to use it again with people's lives.

Why the **** would you think red & black cable would kill more people?

 

[Gerrydelasel]

My country has been diminished. It's currency is less valuable, its attractiveness to investors has lessened.

No, the cheaper pound has made exports and infrastructure more attractive to foreign investors. May has threatened lower tax as a further incentive.

My country has been turned inward looking, not outgoing and open.

No, it is becoming globalist rather than eurocentric.

My country has been turned into one fearful of and prejudiced against foreigners.

Exceedingly few people are like that. I suspect you've never even met one.

My country has been turned into one hankering after a mythical past instead of working to make a success of a union with our closest neighbours.

The world is our neighbour. Only UKIP hanker after the mythical past.

But if you think it is OK for Paul the plumber from Penzance to move to Peterborough, but it's not OK for Petar the plumber from Plovdiv to do the same, on what basis are you discriminating against Petar?

On what basis are we discriminating against Pmbuto from Palau, even while we are in the EU?

 

[Roger928]

So much of what I valued about this country has been destroyed by the ******* and racists

Yeeeeeee.......haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You lot had it coming.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why the **** would you think red & black cable would kill more people?

I don't think that, but that is the calculation you made, and decided it was a price worth paying.

Leaving the EU is going to hit the economy. Argue all you like about how much, and for how long, but the impact will not be zero.

And if the economy takes a dive, so does the amount of money the government has to spend, and borrowing costs increase.

Welfare cuts are already causing extra deaths. Again - no matter how much you argue about how many, it is not zero.

Do you honestly think that "austerity cuts" will be neither prolonged nor made deeper when the government has less money?

Put all these together, and leaving the EU will lead to more deaths.

But you thought all this through, and decided it was a price worth paying for all sorts of nebulous benefits, including the (for you) very important one of being able to use red and black cable.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Exceedingly few people are like that. I suspect you've never even met one.

This forum is rancid with them.

 

[transam]

I don't think that, but that is the calculation you made, and decided it was a price worth paying.

Leaving the EU is going to hit the economy. Argue all you like about how much, and for how long, but the impact will not be zero.

And if the economy takes a dive, so does the amount of money the government has to spend, and borrowing costs increase.

Welfare cuts are already causing extra deaths. Again - no matter how much you argue about how many, it is not zero.

Do you honestly think that "austerity cuts" will be neither prolonged nor made deeper when the government has less money?

Put all these together, and leaving the EU will lead to more deaths.

But you thought all this through, and decided it was a price worth paying for all sorts of nebulous benefits, including the (for you) very important one of being able to use red and black cable.

yes