A lot of people want to come here and who can blame them......

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I guess the whole thread was and is an opportunity for the usual RWR to express their hate for foreigners. Nothing new there!
Just their usual divisive hate-filled comments.
It is all the foreigners' fault, everything is their fault.
Even if it is not, the RWR will invent 'anecdotes' to illustrate their bigotry.

 

[Notch7]

I guess the whole thread was and is an opportunity for the usual RWR to express their hate for foreigners. Nothing new there!
Just their usual divisive hate-filled comments.
It is all the foreigners' fault, everything is their fault.
Even if it is not, the RWR will invent 'anecdotes' to illustrate their bigotry.

The way I see it, there are 2 sides to this.

The Brexit leave campaign was founded to a large extent on migration as a root cause. Which is wrong, the UK needs foreign workers for many sectors of the economy which cant grow without it. (ignoring the arguments at this point regarding MNC using cheap labour to grow their business). Certainly the population increase has added to public service and infrastructure pressures which cant be financed by the tax revenues from migrant wages. However that isnt the fault of the foreign workers.

However, population increase, problems with illegal immigrants, pressures on public services, pressures on social housing and private rentals are real issues. If concerns like these are raised and the response all the time is 'well you are just expressing your hatred of foreigners', then nobody can move forward. What is happening is that communities are suffering, but if people arent allowed to have a proper discussion about it without being called racist, it will move the discussion to the far right who will feed into the frustration and grow their support.

 

[JohnD]

Jesus, just how crazy are you getting John; you seem to be conflating Woodys comments with mine.

Woody joins into the conversation and I answer him. Crazy, you think.

 

[Doggit]

If you quote my post rather than Woodys, then yes. I could understand that you were replying to Woody, but you should have quoted Woody, and then said "in reference to Doggits earlier comment".

 

[Doggit]

If employers are exploiting the benefits system why doesn't the government raise the minimum wage to maybe £10 or even £15 PH

Okay, take the NHS as an example, increase the minimum wage to £15 an hour and the wages bill will go up, then the government has to pay more into the NHS, then your taxes have to go up accordingly. If it was a simple as raising the minimum wage to a living wage, the that would be great, but the private and public sector is linked. I think Osbornes decision to create a living wage, will come back to bite him, as will labours decision to implement the minimum wages, and then the introduction of in work benefits to try and correct the effects.

Oddly enough, a lot of economists say that wages should be rising now as we have (supposedly) reached full employment, but obviously there is still some slack in the system, as they haven't. Once migration (which as you've pointed out, is a necessity) is under control, then with less people chasing jobs, then employers will have to start raising wages.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The way I see it, there are 2 sides to this.

The Brexit leave campaign was founded to a large extent on migration as a root cause. Which is wrong, the UK needs foreign workers for many sectors of the economy which cant grow without it. (ignoring the arguments at this point regarding MNC using cheap labour to grow their business). Certainly the population increase has added to public service and infrastructure pressures which cant be financed by the tax revenues from migrant wages. However that isnt the fault of the foreign workers.

However, population increase, problems with illegal immigrants, pressures on public services, pressures on social housing and private rentals are real issues. If concerns like these are raised and the response all the time is 'well you are just expressing your hatred of foreigners', then nobody can move forward. What is happening is that communities are suffering, but if people arent allowed to have a proper discussion about it without being called racist, it will move the discussion to the far right who will feed into the frustration and grow their support.

I do not see it as two sides.
The fault for poor or inadequate public services and housing (which is the root cause of complaints) is firmly at the feet of successive governments and LA's, so why blame the foreigners? It is clearly not their fault.
When the RWR continually blame those who are not at fault, they shift the attitude and discussion to the far right.
One can assume the reason for this is either because they have an inbuilt (inherited) hateful attitude to foreigners, or they are misled, or misunderstanding, or misrepresenting the fault and the blame.

When you suggest that the needed additional infrastructure and public service cannot be funded by the additional revenues created by migrants, would you adopt a similar position for a lack of medical facilities in, say Spain. Or would you claim that UK ex-pats contribute significantly to the Spanish economy to influence say the Brexit discussion about citizens rights?
You cannot apply one argument to one group of migrants, then switch the argument to suit your ideology, for another group of migrants.

 

[EFLImpudence]

You are missing the point, Doggit.

Should, for example, Toyota be allowed to pay their workers just £100 per week and then the Government give these workers £300 per week benefit because that is what they need to live on (even the Conservative government agrees) leaving Toyota to make larger (huge) profits?
This £300 coming, of course, from better off tax payers.

Or should Toyota pay their workers enough to live on with out benefits being necessary.

 

[Notch7]

I do not see it as two sides.
The fault for poor or inadequate public services and housing (which is the root cause of complaints) is firmly at the feet of successive governments and LA's, so why blame the foreigners? It is clearly not their fault.
When the RWR continually blame those who are not at fault, they shift the attitude and discussion to the far right.
One can assume the reason for this is either because they have an inbuilt (inherited) hateful attitude to foreigners, or they are misled, or misunderstanding, or misrepresenting the fault and the blame.

When you suggest that the needed additional infrastructure and public service cannot be funded by the additional revenues created by migrants, would you adopt a similar position for a lack of medical facilities in, say Spain. Or would you claim that UK ex-pats contribute significantly to the Spanish economy to influence say the Brexit discussion about citizens rights?
You cannot apply one argument to one group of migrants, then switch the argument to suit your ideology, for another group of migrants.

Im not sure what point you are making unless you didnt bother to read my post.

I said:

However that isnt the fault of the foreign workers

But I would say that yours and others automatic reaction to anybody making a point about immigration is always this:

One can assume the reason for this is either because they have an inbuilt (inherited) hateful attitude to foreigners

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Im not sure what point you are making unless you didnt bother to read my post.

I said:


But I would say that yours and others automatic reaction to anybody making a point about immigration is always this:

So you agree the problem is not the fault of migrants, yet you refuse to criticise those that blame migrants for the problem?
In fact, you agree that the problem is not the fault of foreigners, but you criticise someone for putting opposing views to those that do blame foreigners.

 

[SirGalahad]

Okay, take the NHS as an example, increase the minimum wage to £15 an hour and the wages bill will go up, then the government has to pay more into the NHS, then your taxes have to go up accordingly. If it was a simple as raising the minimum wage to a living wage, the that would be great, but the private and public sector is linked. I think Osbornes decision to create a living wage, will come back to bite him, as will labours decision to implement the minimum wages, and then the introduction of in work benefits to try and correct the effects.

Oddly enough, a lot of economists say that wages should be rising now as we have (supposedly) reached full employment, but obviously there is still some slack in the system, as they haven't. Once migration (which as you've pointed out, is a necessity) is under control, then with less people chasing jobs, then employers will have to start raising wages.

Ceteris Paribus? Why is it always that.

I would like to see a model of raising the minimum wage with an offset against NIC or tax. You always seem to miss the feedback effect of rising costs - its money in peoples pockets so AD goes up.

What do you suggest? No minimum wage?

 

[SirGalahad]

 

[Notch7]

Ceteris Paribus? Why is it always that.

I would like to see a model of raising the minimum wage with an offset against NIC or tax. You always seem to miss the feedback effect of rising costs - its money in peoples pockets so AD goes up.

What do you suggest? No minimum wage?

Minimum wage / living wage, has its benefits and issues. A society that believes in social justice should want those at the lowest incomes to be able to earn an acceptable wage. However imposing high minimum wages on the private sector creates new issues. Recruitment will slow down, maybe labour will be replaced by capital, which probably means smaller businesses failing while larger ones will monopolise. It may create inflation. If the lowest paid in a business have a high minimum wage, then that must mean all pay scales have to increase.

Shorter hours and high pay for better living probably require improved education for higher skills.

 

[EFLImpudence]

A society that believes in social justice should want those at the lowest incomes to be able to earn an acceptable wage.

By acceptable, I presume you mean enough to live on, so:

conversely, how is it possibly acceptable that a person can work all week and NOT be paid an acceptable wage?

Should companies be allowed to pay insufficient wages?

 

[Notch7]

By acceptable, I presume you mean enough to live on, so:

conversely, how is it possibly acceptable that a person can work all week and NOT be paid an acceptable wage?

Should companies be allowed to pay insufficient wages?

Look at another scenario; a supermarket increases its lowest paid workers to a level you may consider acceptable. In order to do that, it then increases all its pay scales accordingly (apart from senior management level). Where does the supermarket then recoup its increase in costs? It probably has to increase its prices. The lowest paid, but now better paid employees like to buy their food in the supermarket, but they find their shopping costs them more...........

Should companies be allowed to pay insufficient wages? Lets ask another question: if a high minimum wage is set nationally, if you run a business and cant afford that pay rate, because the business is labour intensive craft based sector, would you employ, put your prices up and watch your turnover nosedive, or would you lay off the staff and source from Vietnam.

Nothing wrong with striving for Utopia, just be realistic about the complications

 

[EFLImpudence]

It doesn't matter what scenario you dream up.

What you are saying is that companies may pay their employees insufficient to live on and that company shall be subsidised by the taxpayer who will top-up their wages.
The taxpayer of course being working people on higher wages and possibly not the companies who will be avoiding paying any taxes at all.




Trump would be proud of you.