A lot of people want to come here and who can blame them......

[SirGalahad]

Look at another scenario; a supermarket increases its lowest paid workers to a level you may consider acceptable. In order to do that, it then increases all its pay scales accordingly (apart from senior management level). Where does the supermarket then recoup its increase in costs? It probably has to increase its prices. The lowest paid, but now better paid employees like to buy their food in the supermarket, but they find their shopping costs them more...........

Should companies be allowed to pay insufficient wages? Lets ask another question: if a high minimum wage is set nationally, if you run a business and cant afford that pay rate, because the business is labour intensive craft based sector, would you employ, put your prices up and watch your turnover nosedive, or would you lay off the staff and source from Vietnam.

Nothing wrong with striving for Utopia, just be realistic about the complications

The paradox at the heart of capitalism.

Company owner A cuts his wages but he requires Company owner B, C etc not to follow suit as in the end aggregate demand would fall.

It's not searching for a Utopia - it's about good economic policies.

 

[SirGalahad]

Minimum wage / living wage, has its benefits and issues. A society that believes in social justice should want those at the lowest incomes to be able to earn an acceptable wage. However imposing high minimum wages on the private sector creates new issues. Recruitment will slow down, maybe labour will be replaced by capital, which probably means smaller businesses failing while larger ones will monopolise. It may create inflation. If the lowest paid in a business have a high minimum wage, then that must mean all pay scales have to increase.

Shorter hours and high pay for better living probably require improved education for higher skills.

Social justice has got nothing to do with it. What's a high minimum wage?

 

[SirGalahad]

What Notch I believe is talking about is what we call flexible wages but in reality wages really are not flexible they are sticky. However this is a very neo classical and rudimentary understanding of the labour market and it leaves wage determination if there is no collective bargaining to the employer who then can dictate wages. The issue then becomes of market power. That is why you need regulations to stop abuses of market power.

 

[Notch7]

It doesn't matter what scenario you dream up.

What you are saying is that companies may pay their employees insufficient to live on and that company shall be subsidised by the taxpayer who will top-up their wages.
The taxpayer of course being working people on higher wages and possibly not the companies who will be avoiding paying any taxes at all.

I am saying none of those things, you have assumed thats what I think.

There is now too much inequality in this country now and changes need to be made, certainly the highest earners have had their earnings increased exponentially in recent years.

You want to believe that raising minimum wages is the answer and you dont want to hear it isnt that straightforward.




Trump would be proud of you.

 

[SirGalahad]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/the-republican-war-on-economics.html

Supply siders are wrong but they can sell their policies to a disenfranchised and ill informed public.

 

[SirGalahad]

 

[Brigadier]

Unless it has escaped your attention, almost no poster here had any say in the US election.

Who's the special kind of stupid again?

 

[SirGalahad]

Unless it has escaped your attention, almost no poster here had any say in the US election.

Who's the special kind of stupid again?

Unless it escaped your attention I thought we would be getting a quick brilliant trade deal with the US.

You still upset? Looks like it. Try harder.

 

[Notch7]

Social justice has got nothing to do with it. What's a high minimum wage?

social justice means: justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.

do you think that minimum or living wages have nothing to do with distribution of wealth?

How do you solve the paradox that an unskilled worker would need paying more that his labour value in order for him to receive a wage commensurate with a good living standard.

And how do you solve the complication that imposing controls on private sector business in order to redistribute wealth can also inhibit ambition.

 

[SirGalahad]

social justice means: justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.

do you think that minimum or living wages have nothing to do with distribution of wealth?

How do you solve the paradox that an unskilled worker would need paying more that his labour value in order for him to receive a wage commensurate with a good living standard.

And how do you solve the complication that imposing controls on private sector business in order to redistribute wealth can also inhibit ambition.

First off when you start talking about social justice it becomes more of a subjective issue.

I look at policies that benefit the economy both in the short and long term. Rising inequality is a concern because as the rich gain more wealth we know their MPC falls and that consumer demand falls as well (people have less to spend and so the only way to continue spending is getting into debt - look at the rising levels of debt)

Also the rich can then also unduly influence democracy though lobbying and donations.

There has always been a paradox at the heart of capitalism. Company owner A lowers his wages but he doesnt want Company owners B,C etc to follow suit or AD will fall and that will hurt everyone.

We exchange labour for capital. If you want free and flexible wages then you need to have a free and flexible market for Rent. If tomorrow my wages respond to a drop in sales by being cut back will my rent be cut back by a similar amount? If not why not?

You cannot see the issue in a microcosm, the economy is an interconnected system.

Reality is that neo classical economics is best left to theory because trying to implement these whacky ideas leads to more problems than they solve.

If ambition could be simply be encouraged by a lack of imposing controls then why are there third world countries that lack all manner of regulations and controls.

You are looking at only one aspect of the wider picture and drawing conclusions based on that.

 

[Brigadier]

Unless it escaped your attention I thought we would be getting a quick brilliant trade deal with the US.

You still upset? Looks like it. Try harder.

Why would I be upset?
That you have no answers to simple questions?
Accusations about narratives, when it's your who starts the threads?
Your progression towards smilies and scornful replies gives away your increasing desperation.

 

[SirGalahad]

Why would I be upset?
That you have no answers to simple questions?
Accusations about narratives, when it's your who starts the threads?

I think you can't accept the answers - cognitive bias perhaps?
If it was a narrative based approach then why do you respond.

Your progression towards smilies and scornful replies gives away your increasing desperation.

Who's the special kind of stupid again?

I am desperate indeed of some meaningful discussion not clouded by those suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Doggit]

No no no Brigadeer, Kankerot isn't showing increasing desperation, he's just demonstrating his contempt for us lesser mortals who can't see what he's trying to teach us. We're obviously just too ignorant to appreciate the his intellect.

If you can't get someone to converse with you at your own level, what else can you do, but show your derision of them.

 

[Doggit]

I am desperate indeed of some meaningful discussion not clouded by those suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Woah, now if that's not a case of take at look at yourself in the mirror first mate, then I'm not sure what is.

And if you can't find the intellectual equivalence in here, then I suggest you look elsewhere for somewhere else to discuss your ideas with.

 

[SirGalahad]

No no no Brigadeer, Kankerot isn't showing increasing desperation, he's just demonstrating his contempt for us lesser mortals who can't see what he's trying to teach us. We're obviously just too ignorant to appreciate the his intellect.

If you can't get someone to converse with you at your own level, what else can you do, but show your derision of them.

I would defer to those that have more knowledge than me in an area I do not - example - plumbing, electricals, building etc and take their advice on board. If I asked for some advice on plumbing and then turned around and said I am right you are wrong - you wouldn't think much of me.

But fair enough I may have crossed a line if I was obnoxious.

So Brigadier, Doggit and anyone else I have come across as being condescending I am sorry.