Arctic or HO7RN-F extension lead?

[ericmark]

They do not look like shuttered cables to me? neither does that, both clearly intended for domestic use, one for EV charging and the other for narrow boats and caravans, and I know I would run out a cable for my caravan which the regulations say should be "a flexible cord or cable of 25 m (±2 m) length, harmonized code designation HOSRN-F (BS 7919) or equivalent," so at least 23 meters long, and it remained connected to keep battery charged for around 48 weeks of the year and only removed when I went on holiday, it was not 23 meters long, it was only just long enough, which is why I did not take it on holiday with us.

I will admit having cables outside for an extended time does present some danger, and this will vary depending on what it feeds. To get around the law in Wales, it was also the case in England at one time, we got products like this.

Blagdon Armoured supply consist of:

* 5 metres of rubber cable (pre-wired to plug and socket)
* Plug and socket armoured cable to rubber cable adaptor. (pre-wired x 2)
* Plug and socket adaptor brackets. (with fittings x 2)
* Metal sheathed armoured cable (5/10/15/20 metres depending on the model purchased)
* Armoured cable buried warning tape (5/10/15/20 metres depending on the model purchased)
* 50cm of rubber cable (pre-wired to plug and socket)

It will be noted only the cable to be buried is "Metal sheathed armoured cable" the rest is rubber.

There have been debates on cable colour, blue is used to designate 230 volt, but orange is far easier to see in the grass, also using the 2.5 mm² cable at 25 meters long one could not wind it onto a drum, I tried ready made cable tidy but still not really big enough for 2.5 mm² cable at 25 meters long, so it was a case of fig of 8 on the ground. I have used flexible supply cables throughout my working life some quite big, cranes and concrete pumps used between 150 mm² and 240 mm² cables which were not SWA, but just large version of an extension lead, however the cranes were in the main running a set route, and there was limited access where it ran, and we did have problems with concrete pumps and the use of flex in UK, the same for welding sets which were often supplied with flex supply cables and on some sites these needed changing to a braid cable to satisfy the heath and safety people.

I would use Arctic myself as can be a bright colour, but either would do in England, Wales the garden is a special location and either pre-made installation like the Blagdon or needs LABC notification, not that I would bother.

 

[JohnW2]

View attachment 257515 They do not look like shuttered cables to me? View attachment 257516 neither does that, both clearly intended for domestic use, one for EV charging and the other for narrow boats and caravans ...

I'm sure they're not (shuttered) but they are presumably not 'required' to be (do any of you know for sure?) - they certainly don't come within the scope of BS7671 which, as we know, does require shuttered sockets.

Indeed, as we have discussed, 'shuttered' (or 'interlocked') trailing (60309 etc.) connectors are a very rare (and, I suspect, very expensive) animal, which one rarely sees (I don't think I ever have) - so it's unlikley that (m)any extension leads have them.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

one for EV charging

EV charge cables are only energised when they are connected to the EVSE and a suitable vehicle.

60309 series connectors can be energised at any time, and if such things must be installed in a domestic situation, interlocked versions are essential.

 

[JohnW2]

60309 series connectors can be energised at any time, and if such things must be installed in a domestic situation, interlocked versions are essential.

That certainly sounds sensible but eric and others have been talking about extension leads, and I don't think that (m)any 60309 ones have interlocked (or 'shuttered', or whatever) connectors, do they?

I also wonder whether it makes sense to single out "domestic situations" for such concerns - I would have thought that careless, perhaps stupid and/or 'irresponsible' use would be at least as likely on building sites, and sites of outdoor events etc., as in domestic settings, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[plugwash]

That certainly sounds sensible but eric and others have been talking about extension leads, and I don't think that (m)any 60309 ones have interlocked (or 'shuttered', or whatever) connectors, do they?

As I said earlier, Lewden offer one but it appears to be hard to find and expensive (when I googled the part number I couldn't find anywhere selling it and one site quoting a "trade price" of nearly £200.

Assuming the planned setup was a socket outlet on the house, an inlet on the outbuilding and a removable lead between them though, I'm not convinced the lead itself is within the scope of BS7671. And the regulation only applies to outlets, not inlets.

I also wonder whether it makes sense to single out "domestic situations" for such concerns - I would have thought that careless, perhaps stupid and/or 'irresponsible' use would be at least as likely on building sites, and sites of outdoor events etc., as in domestic settings, wouldn't it?

I would assume that the regulation is intended to protect young children who have smaller fingers than adults and may be left unsupervised in rooms of a house.

Flexible cables with un-shuttered ends are a hazard to young children, potentially a worse hazard than fixed socket outlets but unlike a fixed socket outlet they can be removed when not in used.

 

[JohnW2]

As I said earlier, Lewden offer one but it appears to be hard to find and expensive (when I googled the part number I couldn't find anywhere selling it and one site quoting a "trade price" of nearly £200.

Indeed you did but, as I just wrote, I've never seen an extension lead with any such (as I also said, rare and expensive) trailing socket, have you?

Assuming the planned setup was a socket outlet on the house, an inlet on the outbuilding and a removable lead between them though, I'm not convinced the lead itself is within the scope of BS7671. And the regulation only applies to outlets, not inlets.

As I said, I would think it pretty certain that such a lead is not within the scope of BS7671... if it were, that would open up a massive can of worms in relation to any number of ubiquitous types of 'leads'.

I would assume that the regulation is intended to protect young children who have smaller fingers than adults and may be left unsupervised in rooms of a house.

I think it goes further than that. I doubt whether any child could get his/her fingers into the aperture of a BS1363 socket (far enough to touch anything live), yet there is still a requirement for shutters - presumably because of the possibility of conductive things being 'poked in'.

Flexible cables with un-shuttered ends are a hazard to young children, potentially a worse hazard than fixed socket outlets but unlike a fixed socket outlet they can be removed when not in used.

I think we've all said that. The problem is that whilst they may (as well as 'can') be 'removed' (unplugged) when not in use, they may also not be unplugged. ... but, again, they do not usually come within the scope of bs7671.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

That sounds sensible. However, it's presumably when the female connector is not mated that it poses the greatest risk, isn't it?

Kind Regards, John

Yes of course that's the problem, however the public do all sorts of things at events

 

[JohnW2]

Yes of course that's the problem, however the public do all sorts of things at events

Quite - and that merely increases the problem/concerns.

Of course, it will not be 'the public' who leave energised cables with unmated connectors lying around.

Given that there are people ('here' and elsewhere) who get extremely concerned about incredibly (sometimes 'vanishingly') small risks, I'm a little surprised that this situation is 'accepted'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Of course, it will not be 'the public' who leave energised cables with unmated connectors lying around.

Kind Regards, John

Indeed, but then it's not common for us sparks to leave powered & unmated connectors laying around in areas for the pulic either. I'll go further and say we do all we can to avoid any cables in public ares.

 

[JohnW2]

Indeed, but then it's not common for us sparks to leave powered & unmated connectors laying around in areas for the pulic either.

I would certainly hope that would be the case - but 'not common' is very very different from 'incredibly rare' - which latter, as i said, is enough of a risk to concern some people, here and elsewhere.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

EV charge cables are only energised when they are connected to the EVSE and a suitable vehicle.

Be it a relay, or a linked isolator there are many ways to ensure a socket can't be assessed in error. However with an extension lead the shutters can be opened by a child playing, not with the wall socket only an extension lead, there have been non BS1363 devices designed to defeat the shutters this website expands on the problem so a linked isolator is far safer than a shuttered socket, and be is a narrow boat maria or a caravan site the 16 amp and other sockets are allowed be it BS 546, BS 196, or BS EN 60309-2.

Although it says

553.1.4 Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type and, for an a.c. installation. shall preferably be of a type complying with BS 1363.

It continues:-

553.1.5 A plug and socket-outlet not complying with BS 1363. BS 546, BS 196 or BS EN 60309-2, may be used in single-phase a.c. or two-wire d.c. circuits operating at a nominal voltage not exceeding 250 volts for:
(i) the connection of an electric clock, provided that the plug and socket-outlet are designed specifically for that purpose, and that each plug incorporates a fuse of rating not exceeding 3 amperes complying with BS 646 or BS 1362 as appropriate
(ii) the connection of an electric shaver. provided that the socket-outlet is either incorporated in a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 or, in a room other than a bathroom, is a type complying with BS 4573
(iii) a circuit having special characteristics such that danger would otherwise arise or it is necessary to distinguish the function of the circuit.

Since the lead is outside the house, it can't be included as a household item. Note it says household not domestic.

 

[JohnW2]

... Since the lead is outside the house, it can't be included as a household item. Note it says household not domestic.

It actually says "household and similar".

I think you are probably 'splitting hairs'. If it is used by members of a household in, say, their garage, their shed or their garden etc., I think I would call that fairly 'similar'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

What is the difference between lawn at back of house and a caravan site? Where I worked we had these mainly the 32 amp version, made by Martin Lunel these were far better than the cheap plastic versions we use today, the plug had to be inserted and turned to make it live, and the button released it. Technically not to British standard listed in the book, however some times we need to use some common sense, and we all know there is nothing really wrong with a 32 amp extension lead with commando sockets, just being petty and pedantic.

 

[JohnW2]

What is the difference between lawn at back of house and a caravan site?

I didn't necessarily mean to imply that there is any such difference.

One possible way of interpreting "household and similar" would be along the lines of "non-commercial" or, perhaps, to use a variant of one of your favourite phrases, "under the control of non-skilled persons" - in which case it might apply as much to 'a [non-skilled'] member of the general public' in a caravan site as in their own house or garden.

As go go on to say ...

... some times we need to use some common sense ...

... which, for me, means that what applies to a householder in their own garden should also apply to them when they are in a caravan site.

Ironically, in a caravan site what I would have thought matters most (in terms of common sense) is the fixed female outlet into which a member of the public plugs their lead - but you seem to be arguing (seeming contrary to common sense) that that should be exempt from the requirement for shutters/whatever (because it is not "household" use)

Kind Regards, John

 

[plugwash]

IIRC the regs for caravan sites were changed recently to require interlocked sockets.