At last, someone locked up for life!!!

The murder rates have increased steadily and consistently since being recorded. Your chart shows only that.
From Peter Hitchens:

(NB by "softening of the law" he refers to the last years of the death penalty, in which very few people actually were sentenced to the death penalty.)


In 1956, when the death penalty was still pretty serious, there were 94 convictions for homicide in England and Wales (all future figures refer to England and Wales unless otherwise stated). Of these, 11 were for infanticide, 51 for manslaughter and 32 for murder. In 1958, after the softening of the law, there were 113 homicide convictions - 10 infanticides, 48 manslaughters, 25 for manslaughter with 'diminished responsibility' and 30 for murder. By 1964 there were 170 homicide convictions - 12 infanticides, 73 manslaughters, 41 manslaughters due to 'diminished responsibility' , 44 murders. So, in eight years, a rise in homicide from 94 to 170, quite substantial. But those convicted for murder had risen only from 32 to 44, which hardly seems significant at all. What was really going on here could only be established by getting out the trial records. But it is at least possible that, by reclassifying and downgrading certain homicides, the authorities had made things look a good deal better than they were. Remember, these are convictions, not totals of offences committed.

Sorry, more statistics here. In 1966, immediately after formal abolition, there were 254 homicide convictions, 72 of them for murder. In 1975, 377 homicide convictions, 107 for murder. In 1985, 441 manslaughter convictions, 173 for murder. In 2004, there were 648 homicide convictions - including 361 murders, 265 ordinary manslaughters and 22 'diminished responsibilities'. Interestingly, more people were convicted of manslaughter (265) than were charged with it (137) and none of those convicted of 'diminished responsibility' (22) were charged with it . Many murder prosecutions failed (759 were proceeded against).

The increasingly important charge of 'attempted murder' has also run into trouble. In 2004 417 were proceeded against, and 96 convicted. Prosecutions for wounding or other acts endangering life was even more troublesome, with 7,054 proceeded against and 1,897 convicted. These figures, again, are for charges and convictions rather than instances of the offence, which in both cases is considerably higher. Offences of wounding etc are now close to the 19,000 mark each year, around triple the total for 30 years ago. AS the Independent on Sunday reported on 27th April 1997 : 'Britain's murder rate would be at least treble what it is now but for improvements in medicine and the growing skills of surgeons and paramedics, medical and legal experts believe.

Many people who are now charged with attempted murder or wounding would, several years ago, have been facing a murder charge, as their victims' lives would not have been saved.

Latest crime figures for the past 20 years show that while the murder rate has increased slightly, from 616 to 745, attempted murder cases have shot up from 155 to 634, and woundings to endanger life have doubled from 5,885 to 10,445.

"The murder rate is artificially low now," said Professor Bernard Knight, the leading Home Office pathologist who has been involved in a number of high profile cases, including the Fred West murders in Gloucester.
 
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From Peter Hitchens:

(NB by "softening of the law" he refers to the last years of the death penalty, in which very few people actually were sentenced to the death penalty.)


In 1956, when the death penalty was still pretty serious, there were 94 convictions for homicide in England and Wales (all future figures refer to England and Wales unless otherwise stated). Of these, 11 were for infanticide, 51 for manslaughter and 32 for murder. In 1958, after the softening of the law, there were 113 homicide convictions - 10 infanticides, 48 manslaughters, 25 for manslaughter with 'diminished responsibility' and 30 for murder. By 1964 there were 170 homicide convictions - 12 infanticides, 73 manslaughters, 41 manslaughters due to 'diminished responsibility' , 44 murders. So, in eight years, a rise in homicide from 94 to 170, quite substantial. But those convicted for murder had risen only from 32 to 44, which hardly seems significant at all. What was really going on here could only be established by getting out the trial records. But it is at least possible that, by reclassifying and downgrading certain homicides, the authorities had made things look a good deal better than they were. Remember, these are convictions, not totals of offences committed.

Sorry, more statistics here. In 1966, immediately after formal abolition, there were 254 homicide convictions, 72 of them for murder. In 1975, 377 homicide convictions, 107 for murder. In 1985, 441 manslaughter convictions, 173 for murder. In 2004, there were 648 homicide convictions - including 361 murders, 265 ordinary manslaughters and 22 'diminished responsibilities'. Interestingly, more people were convicted of manslaughter (265) than were charged with it (137) and none of those convicted of 'diminished responsibility' (22) were charged with it . Many murder prosecutions failed (759 were proceeded against).

The increasingly important charge of 'attempted murder' has also run into trouble. In 2004 417 were proceeded against, and 96 convicted. Prosecutions for wounding or other acts endangering life was even more troublesome, with 7,054 proceeded against and 1,897 convicted. These figures, again, are for charges and convictions rather than instances of the offence, which in both cases is considerably higher. Offences of wounding etc are now close to the 19,000 mark each year, around triple the total for 30 years ago. AS the Independent on Sunday reported on 27th April 1997 : 'Britain's murder rate would be at least treble what it is now but for improvements in medicine and the growing skills of surgeons and paramedics, medical and legal experts believe.

Many people who are now charged with attempted murder or wounding would, several years ago, have been facing a murder charge, as their victims' lives would not have been saved.

Latest crime figures for the past 20 years show that while the murder rate has increased slightly, from 616 to 745, attempted murder cases have shot up from 155 to 634, and woundings to endanger life have doubled from 5,885 to 10,445.

"The murder rate is artificially low now," said Professor Bernard Knight, the leading Home Office pathologist who has been involved in a number of high profile cases, including the Fred West murders in Gloucester.
Waffle.

Your chart shows murder going up year on year. There is no blip. You are wrong, again. The threat of capital punishment does not deter.
 
From Peter Hitchens:

(NB by "softening of the law" he refers to the last years of the death penalty, in which very few people actually were sentenced to the death penalty.)


In 1956, when the death penalty was still pretty serious, there were 94 convictions for homicide in England and Wales (all future figures refer to England and Wales unless otherwise stated). Of these, 11 were for infanticide, 51 for manslaughter and 32 for murder. In 1958, after the softening of the law, there were 113 homicide convictions - 10 infanticides, 48 manslaughters, 25 for manslaughter with 'diminished responsibility' and 30 for murder. By 1964 there were 170 homicide convictions - 12 infanticides, 73 manslaughters, 41 manslaughters due to 'diminished responsibility' , 44 murders. So, in eight years, a rise in homicide from 94 to 170, quite substantial. But those convicted for murder had risen only from 32 to 44, which hardly seems significant at all. What was really going on here could only be established by getting out the trial records. But it is at least possible that, by reclassifying and downgrading certain homicides, the authorities had made things look a good deal better than they were. Remember, these are convictions, not totals of offences committed.

Sorry, more statistics here. In 1966, immediately after formal abolition, there were 254 homicide convictions, 72 of them for murder. In 1975, 377 homicide convictions, 107 for murder. In 1985, 441 manslaughter convictions, 173 for murder. In 2004, there were 648 homicide convictions - including 361 murders, 265 ordinary manslaughters and 22 'diminished responsibilities'. Interestingly, more people were convicted of manslaughter (265) than were charged with it (137) and none of those convicted of 'diminished responsibility' (22) were charged with it . Many murder prosecutions failed (759 were proceeded against).

The increasingly important charge of 'attempted murder' has also run into trouble. In 2004 417 were proceeded against, and 96 convicted. Prosecutions for wounding or other acts endangering life was even more troublesome, with 7,054 proceeded against and 1,897 convicted. These figures, again, are for charges and convictions rather than instances of the offence, which in both cases is considerably higher. Offences of wounding etc are now close to the 19,000 mark each year, around triple the total for 30 years ago. AS the Independent on Sunday reported on 27th April 1997 : 'Britain's murder rate would be at least treble what it is now but for improvements in medicine and the growing skills of surgeons and paramedics, medical and legal experts believe.

Many people who are now charged with attempted murder or wounding would, several years ago, have been facing a murder charge, as their victims' lives would not have been saved.

Latest crime figures for the past 20 years show that while the murder rate has increased slightly, from 616 to 745, attempted murder cases have shot up from 155 to 634, and woundings to endanger life have doubled from 5,885 to 10,445.

"The murder rate is artificially low now," said Professor Bernard Knight, the leading Home Office pathologist who has been involved in a number of high profile cases, including the Fred West murders in Gloucester.
Very much like Mottie's find me an item on a Tuesday morning, before 0900, in my local Sainsburys, in aisle 3, for less that 50p, imported from Spain that is in short supply.

It's all about careful selection of the search criteria. As Noseall implies, you need to show the data over a longer period of time, not your limited period data selected to justify your opinion.
In addition, it wouldn't hurt to show other data, such as population, poverty, other crimes, police numbers, etc.
 
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Where there can be absolutely no possibly doubt at all, then the death penalty is absolutely fine with me. Why should they get out again to risk them doing more? It may not be a deterrent (I suspect it would), but does that really matter - there is the revenge for the victim(s) and the saving in public funds from keeping them for years, plus their useless life if and when they are released.

Sure, In an absolute airtight open and shut case with 100% certainty, I wouldn’t shed a single tear for these people to be marched out to the nearest wall and shot in the head.

Civilisation it would feel like a bit of step back but ultimately I have no issue with punishment being dished out as a form of revenge for the family of the victim.
 
Sure, In an absolute airtight open and shut case with 100% certainty, I wouldn’t shed a single tear for these people to be marched out to the nearest wall and shot in the head.

Civilisation it would feel like a bit of step back but ultimately I have no issue with punishment being dished out as a form of revenge for the family of the victim.
Can you imagine how the appeal procedures would be gummed up by appeals?
 
I have no issue with punishment being dished out as a form of revenge for the family of the victim.
I didn't realise both you and trans are all for Islamic Qisas (eye for an eye) law. What other Muslim traditions are you in favour of?
 
I didn't realise both you and trans are all for Islamic Qisas (eye for an eye) law. What other Muslim traditions are you in favour of?
Maybe they'll support the concept of Blood Money, which is not restricted to Islam.
 
I didn't realise both you and trans are all for Islamic Qisas (eye for an eye) law. What other Muslim traditions are you in favour of?

I'm not really au fait with Islamic traditions tbh, I'm just being honest that for someone like the guy who shot the little girl, if there was a button you pressed and it put a bolt through his skull like cattle, I'd press that button and get on with the rest of my day like nothing had even happened.

Some people are just scum, irredeemable and not worth societies time trying to reform tbh.
 
Nosey, add the murders and the attempted murders together (for they are the same crime intentionally) and you get little fluctuation in the yearly figures from 1900 up until the 1950s.

They start to rise in the 1950s as there were fewer and fewer executions due to public opposition, as well as laws changing and certain murders being downgraded. There was a rise during WW2 - were executions put on hold during the war I wonder?

It would be interesting to plot the annual number of executions against these figures, but I cannot find the data for that. I do know that in the final 10 years of the death penalty the yearly numbers of executions were in the low single figures.

Then look how the figures climb after abolition in 1965; the effect of abolition is undeniable. For example, the number in 1975 was double that of 1965. Did the population of the country double in that time?

Put these figures on a graph and you will see.

190031275
387​
190134183
424​
190233092
422​
190331299
411​
190431683
399​
190528781
368​
190626399
362​
1907273112
385​
190832192
413​
1909300116
416​
191028887
375​
191129193
384​
1912311109
420​
191333296
428​
191426992
361​
191527561
336​
191625747
304​
191722657
283​
191820449
253​
191929895
393​
1920313100
413​
1921251126
377​
1922243118
361​
192325991
350​
192427479
353​
1925318107
425​
192629774
371​
1927293104
397​
192828478
362​
192931189
400​
193030078
378​
193128770
357​
193228981
370​
193335673
429​
193434892
440​
193531283
395​
193636196
457​
193730574
379​
193830579
384​
1939N/AN/AN/A
194028870
358​
194131597
412​
194240674
480​
194332299
421​
1944358146
504​
1945492190
682​
1946347167
514​
1947371179
550​
1948341191
532​
1949298167
465​
1950346183
529​
1951328126
454​
1952400155
555​
1953327129
456​
1954311176
487​
1955279169
448​
1956315162
477​
1957332158
490​
1958261190
451​
1959266167
433​
1960282210
492​
1961265193
458​
1962299204
503​
1963307203
510​
1964296200
496​
1965325207
532​
1966364268
632​
1967412245
657​
1968425281
706​
1969392332
724​
1970393340
733​
1971459376
835​
1972476354
830​
1973465429
894​
1974600371
971​
1975515499
1014​
1976565239
804​
1977482222
704​
1978532185
717​
1979629158
787​
1980620155
775​
1981559182
741​
1982618173
791​
1983550128
678​
1984621156
777​
1985616155
771​
1986661159
820​
1987688291
979​
1988624368
992​
1989641376
1017​
1990669476
1145​
1991725555
1280​
1992687568
1255​
1993670661
1331​
1994726651
1377​
1995745634
1379​
1996679674
1353​
1997739652
1391​
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nosey, add the murders and the attempted murders together (for they are the same crime intentionally) and you get little fluctuation in the yearly figures from 1900 up until the 1950s.

They start to rise in the 1950s as there were fewer and fewer executions due to public opposition, as well as laws changing and certain murders being downgraded. There was a rise during WW2 - were executions put on hold during the war I wonder?

It would be interesting to plot the annual number of executions against these figures, but I cannot find the data for that. I do know that in the final 10 years of the death penalty the yearly numbers of executions were in the low single figures.

Then look how the figures climb after abolition in 1965; the effect of abolition is undeniable. For example, the number in 1975 was double that of 1965. Did the population of the country double in that time?

Put these figures on a graph and you will see.

190031275
387​
190134183
424​
190233092
422​
190331299
411​
190431683
399​
190528781
368​
190626399
362​
1907273112
385​
190832192
413​
1909300116
416​
191028887
375​
191129193
384​
1912311109
420​
191333296
428​
191426992
361​
191527561
336​
191625747
304​
191722657
283​
191820449
253​
191929895
393​
1920313100
413​
1921251126
377​
1922243118
361​
192325991
350​
192427479
353​
1925318107
425​
192629774
371​
1927293104
397​
192828478
362​
192931189
400​
193030078
378​
193128770
357​
193228981
370​
193335673
429​
193434892
440​
193531283
395​
193636196
457​
193730574
379​
193830579
384​
1939N/AN/AN/A
194028870
358​
194131597
412​
194240674
480​
194332299
421​
1944358146
504​
1945492190
682​
1946347167
514​
1947371179
550​
1948341191
532​
1949298167
465​
1950346183
529​
1951328126
454​
1952400155
555​
1953327129
456​
1954311176
487​
1955279169
448​
1956315162
477​
1957332158
490​
1958261190
451​
1959266167
433​
1960282210
492​
1961265193
458​
1962299204
503​
1963307203
510​
1964296200
496​
1965325207
532​
1966364268
632​
1967412245
657​
1968425281
706​
1969392332
724​
1970393340
733​
1971459376
835​
1972476354
830​
1973465429
894​
1974600371
971​
1975515499
1014​
1976565239
804​
1977482222
704​
1978532185
717​
1979629158
787​
1980620155
775​
1981559182
741​
1982618173
791​
1983550128
678​
1984621156
777​
1985616155
771​
1986661159
820​
1987688291
979​
1988624368
992​
1989641376
1017​
1990669476
1145​
1991725555
1280​
1992687568
1255​
1993670661
1331​
1994726651
1377​
1995745634
1379​
1996679674
1353​
1997739652
1391​
The chart shows a steady increase with the odd blip for world wars etc. Stop making a fool of yourself. The threat of capital punishment does not reduce murder rates and has been proven in countries where it is applied.
 
The chart shows a steady increase with the odd blip for world wars etc. Stop making a fool of yourself. The threat of capital punishment does not reduce murder rates and has been proven in countries where it is applied.
It clearly doesn't, look again. Are you looking at the right-hand column, i.e the two figures added together? It shows numbers within the same range up to the 50s' then a steep climb from the 60s onward. For instance, the 1943 number was much the same as 1903. You need to explain yourself better if I am merely to understand, let alone believe you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It clearly doesn't, look again. Are you looking at the right-hand column, i.e the two figures added together? It shows numbers within the same range up to the 50s' then a steep climb from the 60s onward. For instance, the 1943 number was much the same as 1903. You need to explain yourself better if I am merely to understand, let alone believe you.
What happened in 1943 andy, durrrr...? (Clue: have a look at both the war years)

Please stop making a twit of yourself.
 
It clearly doesn't, look again. Are you looking at the right-hand column, i.e the two figures added together? It shows numbers within the same range up to the 50s' then a steep climb from the 60s onward. For instance, the 1943 number was much the same as 1903. You need to explain yourself better if I am merely to understand, let alone believe you.
Did you know that Harold Shipman caused a blip (not shown on your chart)?

Anyhoo, murder rates have steadily risen with or without the death penalty.
 
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