Ban the sale of twin and earth ? ?

[SimonH2]

You are too moronic to take part in a sensible discussion. You have little or no electrical knowledge as demonstrated by your assumption that my points regarding T&E cable clamping are invalid.

And you refuse to prove your own assertions, despite googling for hours no doubt.

Then you start with the insults as do a lot of people when they realise they have lost an argument.

No, I have lost no argument.

I point out that you chastise others for refusing to answer your questions - questions which I might point out are partly designed to shift the topic away from your lost cause. Yet when asked direct and simple questions which are directly relevant to your argument you have stubbornly refused to answer them - probably because you realise you cannot answer them without completely destroying your argument.

So, I'll repeat the question, which is very pertinent to your accusation against T&E :
Using the same accessories, how you you clamp a round cable in them ?


If you want to see accessories designed for flat cable and with a clamp capability, then a few seconds with your favourite search engine will return them. As you seem to have missed the hint before, a common name for flat T&E in the US is Romex - here's a URL that will return loads of hits, and loads of images :
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=romex+clamp
You see, there are plenty of options, including liquid tight glands (the first hit when I search) :
http://www.sealconusa.com/catalog/sealcon09.htm

So you see, these things do exist, but for some reason people over here have determined that they aren't required.

 

[Paul_C]

If any criticism is called for, I think it's probably because the IEE/IET have seen fit to change (in some contexts) terminology which was incredibly well-estalished, highly ubiquitous and generally widely 'understood'

If I might dare mention it again, the recent decree that an arrangement which has been recognized a single-phase for well over a century is now to be called "two phase" is another example.

And as has also been mentioned before, there is the long-standing misuse of the term neutral by the IEE/IET. So if an argument can be made that an ECC/CPC should not be called an earth and that sockets should not have a marked "E" terminal because under certain conditions the points under consideration are not actually at true earth potential, then I think there is a much stronger case for removing the "N" markings on single-phase sockets and accessories because it's not a real neutral conductor, even if in many cases it's connected to a proper neutral upstream.

 

[JohnW2]

If I might dare mention it again, the recent decree that an arrangement which has been recognized a single-phase for well over a century is now to be called "two phase" is another example.
And as has also been mentioned before, there is the long-standing misuse of the term neutral by the IEE/IET. So if an argument can be made that an ECC/CPC should not be called an earth and that sockets should not have a marked "E" terminal because under certain conditions the points under consideration are not actually at true earth potential, then I think there is a much stronger case for removing the "N" markings on single-phase sockets and accessories ....

Indeed - but, on a pragmatic level, that leads me to argue both for and against the IEE/IET in the two situations. The terms 'Earth' and 'Neutral', even if not technically correct, are so well established, uniquous and generally understood that it is nothing but meddlesome and potentially confusing to change them - sometimes (very) 'established use' should be allowed to persist. There are countless examples in all walks of life, based on history - when, for example, was a pencil 'lead' last made of lead, or an 'innoculation' last given by injection into the eye?

As why the IEE/IET chave chosen to intefere with the 'earth' terminology, on the basis of techical correctness, without doing likewise as regards 'neutral' is something you'd have to ask them!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

when, for example, was a pencil 'lead' last made of lead, or an 'innoculation' last given by injection into the eye?

And when did people last mean a vessel (as a basin) for washing; especially a fixed bowl or basin with running water and drainpipe for washing when they used the word "lavatory"?

(Note - p****g in a washbasin doesn't count)

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[JohnW2]

And I have never needed to terminate a round cable into the back of a ceiling rose.

I'm sure you haven't, since flat T&E has not yet been banned. However, if it were banned, what sort of cable do you envisage you would then terminating into ceiling roses, and how would you be terminating it in a manner that was more satisfactory than what you currently do with T&E?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Paul_C]

the point that T&E is very different both in construction and profile. And the liquid tight glands you link to would not work on T&E.

A comparison of British "T&E" and American Romex (NM-type cable). The former is 2.5 sq. mm, the latter #12 AWG:

 

[JohnW2]

A comparison of British "T&E" and American Romex (NM-type cable). The former is 2.5 sq. mm, the latter #12 AWG: ...

I have to say that I think I prefer ours What is that substance surrounding the cores in the Romex? Whatever it is, it presumably is a non-conductor, and therefore will reduce the chances of an exposed L or N conductor touching the earth/CPC (and hence operating a protective device) if its insulation were damaged.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[SimonH2]

You have a very screwed up mind, both your useless links are to american sites for 'romax' accessories and cable clamps. Even though I'm mightily impressed that you know of an american cable called 'romax', you seem to have missed the point that T&E is very different both in construction and profile. And the liquid tight glands you link to would not work on T&E.

Very different ?
Two power conductors laid parallel with a CPC between them, and oversheathed with a flat oval extrusion - as the pictures posted by Paul_c show. Apart from some papery (as I recall*) insulation round the CPC and a larger CPC, I'd call that quite similar. Pretty well most of the clamps etc for Romex (note that I can spell it too !) type cables will work for our T&E if you choose the right size. I'd also be very surprised if the glands couldn't be used if you pick the right size - given the range of round cables a standard gland will accommodate.

* Not only do I know of it's existence, I have actually (very briefly) worked with it.

Now, are you going to answer the question of how you would terminate a round cable in a "standard" ceiling rose ?

 

[Paul_C]

What is that substance surrounding the cores in the Romex?

Apart from some papery (as I recall*) insulation round the CPC and a larger CPC, I'd call that quite similar.

Yes, it's a fibrous type of paper around the ground wire*, and around the conductors as a whole.

Three-conductor plus ground NM cable is slightly different from the "flat" construction of British "triple & earth" though, having the conductors in a loose spiral form to give the cable an overall round profile.


* EGC - Equipment Grounding Conductor - in American NEC terminology, just to add to the collection of such terms being collected here.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[Paul_C]

Heres a pic of some BASEC approved T&E -
Not quite the same profile as romex, is it?

It isn't, but to be fair it's not really the same profile as traditional T&E either.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ccam108]

Sorry if it has been posted before, but:



Granted only for 1.5/2.5 but I'm sure there will be glands for larger cables around somewhere.

Now are there any situations where round cable can be used and flat cable can't?

 

[JohnW2]

One method could be using besa boxes with properly glanded cables.

True, although that's not quite as simple as just 'terminating into a ceiling rose',which is what you were talking/asking about. If you wanted that approach (rather than just using the ceiling rose), you could use the besa box with T&E, using one of the 'stuffing glands' designed for flat/oval cable - but I suspect you don't do that.

Kind Regards, John.