Do i need to rewire or upgrade consumer unit for EICR??

[jcaan]

The installation certificate would be applicable to what was installed in 1996.
If additions or alterations have been made since, then further documents should have been created for those when they were done.

Old documents do not need updating, they just record what was there at the time.



In some cases yes - but it's not going to happen for a consumer unit which is approaching 30 years old.



There is no 'pass' - it's either Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory.

If there are no RCDs at all, then it's highly likely a new consumer unit will be required.
Even in 1996, RCDs were required for socket outlets that were likely to be used for equipment outdoors - which generally meant those on the ground floor and in garages/outbuildings.

Thanks mate. Maybe they didn't install it in 1996 as we don't have a drive neither a garage , 4 bed terraced house with a basement and attic...

Aside from that certificate that's on the CU ... we don't have any other docs... but as a matter if curiosity how would anyone know whether the downlights in the attic were done a few years back or in 1996? I'd assume it will just feed off the same lighting circuit.

As a matter of curiosity what are the going prices for newer RCD CU? Guide prices.

 

[jcaan]

When doesn't matter, what matters is what condition it's in now. If it had been a nice metal cased CU with RCDs (quite pricey back then) then it would (assuming no faults) still be complaint now. Since it doesn't have any RCDs then it's not compliant. IF the parts are still available then it could possibly be converted, but after this time that's unlikely and might cost nearly as much as a new board anyway.

As others have said, until the installation has been inspected & tested then it's all very much "how long is a piece of string".
If you have it inspected and it fails, then you can't rent it out until it's sorted. If you don't have it inspected then you can't rent it out. Until you do have it inspected, you won't know if you can or can't rent it out. I would suggest there's no point worrying about whether you can afford any remediation needed until you have some rent coming in - you can't legally get that rent flowing without the remediations needed so will have to find that upfront investment. Being a landlord isn't the "no upfront investment, sit back and watch the rent come in" activity that some people believe.

And don't forget you'll need to have the gas installation and any appliances inspected as well - that's an annual requirement but they have at least made that "MoT style" now so it can be done up to 2 months before expiry of the previous certificate without "losing" the difference in dates.

Thanks mate

You are right about the Gas etc. I'll be enquiring about that too on a gas forum I suppose.

You are right about the renting side. I'm helping a family member due to financial issues. That's why I need to get the house in some state before I can help them rent it out.

 

[flameport]

but as a matter if curiosity how would anyone know whether the downlights in the attic were done a few years back or in 1996?

They won't. Makes no difference to anything anyway - an EICR is a report on the condition of what exists today and whether it complies with the current version of BS7671.

As a matter of curiosity what are the going prices for newer RCD CU? Guide prices.

£600+ for a small installation and a lot more for larger installations.
That would include inspecting and testing all of the existing circuits, so if you have an EICR first that would be some of the work already done.

 

[Murdochcat]

As a matter of curiosity what are the going prices for newer RCD CU? Guide prices.

That rather depends on the property, the number of circuits and the location in the UK

Also be aware that if you are in England or Wales a replacement CU is subject to notification under Part P

So as for budgeting allow £1000 for the EICR, an updated CU - which should also include the EIC and part P

Plus any remedial work identified by the EICR

 

[oldbutnotdead]

What you can do is look at all the socket outlets, light switches, pattresses etc and replace any that are cracked or broken (i'll guarantee there'll be a few). If you want to do your own loop tests etc then crack on- the value in that will be if you discover and rectify a fault it'll be a lot cheaper than paying someone else to do the investigation.

 

[ebee]

The installation certificate would be applicable to what was installed in 1996.
If additions or alterations have been made since, then further documents should have been created for those when they were done.

Old documents do not need updating, they just record what was there at the time.



In some cases yes - but it's not going to happen for a consumer unit which is approaching 30 years old.



There is no 'pass' - it's either Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory.

If there are no RCDs at all, then it's highly likely a new consumer unit will be required.
Even in 1996, RCDs were required for socket outlets that were likely to be used for equipment outdoors - which generally meant those on the ground floor and in garages/outbuildings.

Even in 1996, RCDs were required for socket outlets that were likely to be used for equipment outdoors - which generally meant those on the ground floor and in garages/outbuildings.

I remember, on far many more than one occasion, this was being interpreted as " well the nearest socket to to any external door(s) would make this compliant then!"
Oh really? you think so!?! so no one would go to the second, third, fourth ............. fifteenth socket away from the door to plug an extension lead in for outside use? Especially if the nearest one is in a garage and is behind the fridge freezer or car battery charger that it is running? Similarly no one would plug in the extension in an upstairs bedroom and run it out from the bedroom window? or plug it into the Cooker Control Unit with onboard socket outlet meant really for occasional use of a kettle? It used to amaze me the number of people who reckoned nobody might use other sockets instead and my experience backed this up. In my view, I always felt that almost any socket could be a likely candidate

 

[ericmark]

In real terms we have to remember there is a huge difference between owner occupied and rented. If I want to flaunt the law, and do things in my house, who will ever know unless I have an accident? Even then I know hospitals are duty bound to report work accidents so I would be careful what I said. In theroy the home is still a work place for social services, and tradesmen, etc, so we can't completely ignore regulations, but with rental the tenants are very likely to report any accidents they feel were not their fault.

In the main it is a watch my back exercise, and it is only when some thing goes wrong, when one gets caught, but when it does, the HSE go through the home with a fine toothed comb. And we read how the courts have fined landlords/ladies for faults which some times seem stupid.

I remember reading how a landlady had rented out a house she had inherited, the new tenant had reported getting a shock, before the had properly moved in, so she engaged an electrician to put it right, but before he arrived one of the tenants was electrocuted due to a combination of faults, one being the tenants own heater. So landlady got a massive fine. And when one looks at the report, her only option was to say sorry you can't move in until the report of a shock has been investigated.

In most the reports one reads, accidents happen because of more than one fault. And one of the things can be the occupant did some thing stupid, or ill advised, like saw sparks, but tried to turn water off first, or had a shock before, but continued to use it, but it is rare the courts blame the injured or killed person, in some cases some foreman is blamed who had never visited the site.

There is no real option, the home needs to be made safe, or simply don't rent it out.

 

[jcaan]

What you can do is look at all the socket outlets, light switches, pattresses etc and replace any that are cracked or broken (i'll guarantee there'll be a few). If you want to do your own loop tests etc then crack on- the value in that will be if you discover and rectify a fault it'll be a lot cheaper than paying someone else to do the investigation.

Perfect , this is what I what I wanted to know.

The only 2 equipment at this stage I have is Megger Megger BM 223 Handheld Insulation Resistance and Continuity Tester and also Martindale VT28.

So I can't do earth loop impedance tests. Is it worth doing insulation resistance and continuity tests on All sockets and Lights ?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Perfect , this is what I what I wanted to know.

The only 2 equipment at this stage I have is Megger Megger BM 223 Handheld Insulation Resistance and Continuity Tester and also Martindale VT28.

So I can't do earth loop impedance tests. Is it worth doing insulation resistance and continuity tests on All sockets and Lights ?

If you can interpret the results appropriately to identify any faults and rectify them then yes it is.
A CU swap on a 'good' installation will be a fixed price. Fault finding can take hours and add substantially to the bill.
An added note- if any rooms are short of sockets think about adding them before the EICR etc. Just make sure you don't start spurring from spurs (if you can't extend a ring final properly you could consider breaking it into 2 radials and derating appropriately at the new CU).

 

[ericmark]

So I can't do earth loop impedance tests. Is it worth doing insulation resistance and continuity tests on All sockets and Lights ?

Yes, if the earth leakage is high, then will need all RCBO or even may not be able to fit them. Testing my own house, my central heating seems to be a little on the high side, but it was running with a RCBO for 4 years without a problem, it was only when the solar panels were fitted I found there was a problem.

I use the clamp on ammeter so I know my back ground leakage is 8 mA, using an insulation tester is not quite as good, as it does not show leakage due to capacitive or inductive linking, but it gives one a good idea as to if there is likely to be problems when RCD's are fitted.

With RCD protection the loop impedance is less important. The idea is the type B MCB with trip in fullness of time at the rated current, but to trip in a second, it needs the magnetic rather than the thermal bit to work, so a 32 amp type B needs 32 x 5 or 160 amp to activate the magnetic part, ohms law 230/160 = 1.44Ω and with 5% for safety 1.38Ω but since the RCD is covering the earth leakage, the limit is more down to volt drop, and if the volt drop is too low, that is not really a safety problem. Yes except with a TT supply we are not to rely on the RCD, but if there one can hardly say 60Ω is OK with a TT and not with a TN supply.

Remember dangerous and potentially dangerous, it does not need to follow current BS 7671 the code 4 was dropped we now only have C1, C2, and C3, so non potentially dangerous can only be coded as code C3.

 

[JohnW2]

In real terms we have to remember there is a huge difference between owner occupied and rented.

In terms of the consequences of an inspection/EICR, there is indeed a big difference, since an owner-occupier is under no direct legal obligation to remedy any defects identified by an EICR.

However, all of the rest of what you go on to say seems to relate to the situation in which someone is injured, or killed, and in that situation I don't think there is much, if any, difference between owner-occupied and rented properties.

If someone suffers serious injury, or is killed, in an owner-occupied property as a result of something dangerous within that property (be it electrical, gas-related, structural or whatever), and regardless of whether the victim is one of the occupants, a visitor or whoever, I don't think the property owner is at much, if any, less risk (than would be the owner of a rental property) of being 'in big legal trouble' if it could be argued that they were responsible (i.e. 'to blame') for allowing the danger to exist or persist.

Of course, in many cases 'incidents' happen for which no-one can reasonably be 'blamed' - particularly if it can be shown that they have taken 'reasonable steps' in an attempt to ensure that people in the property are 'safe'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The Emma Shaw case comes to mind ..... This is the only case which comes to mind, where the courts have ruled as to who is competent ...

That perhaps helps us to put all these discussions into some sort of perspective, since that incident (which you so often cite, and is the only case of such court involvement that 'comes to your mind'), happened over 16 years ago.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

Perfect , this is what I what I wanted to know.

The only 2 equipment at this stage I have is Megger Megger BM 223 Handheld Insulation Resistance and Continuity Tester and also Martindale VT28.

So I can't do earth loop impedance tests. Is it worth doing insulation resistance and continuity tests on All sockets and Lights ?

What do you think you will achieve?

The spark doing the EICR won't take any of your data and use it (well I certainly wouldn't)

Just recommend to your family member, that if they do decide to go down the rental route, then getting an EICR is a best 1st step ........ and find ne locally via recommendation - DO NOT use one suggested by a letting agent is my advice.

 

[jcaan]

That rather depends on the property, the number of circuits and the location in the UK

Also be aware that if you are in England or Wales a replacement CU is subject to notification under Part P

So as for budgeting allow £1000 for the EICR, an updated CU - which should also include the EIC and part P

Plus any remedial work identified by the EICR

They won't. Makes no difference to anything anyway - an EICR is a report on the condition of what exists today and whether it complies with the current version of BS7671.


£600+ for a small installation and a lot more for larger installations.
That would include inspecting and testing all of the existing circuits, so if you have an EICR first that would be some of the work already done.

Perfect guys thanks. Good to know for a rough guidance.

 

[jcaan]

What do you think you will achieve?

The spark doing the EICR won't take any of your data and use it (well I certainly wouldn't)

Just recommend to your family member, that if they do decide to go down the rental route, then getting an EICR is a best 1st step ........ and find ne locally via recommendation - DO NOT use one suggested by a letting agent is my advice.

Hi

Not sure if you saw earlier in the hhtead somewhere I stated that I'm also studying electrical installation in college.

I have 2 pieces of equipment the Megger BM223 and VT28 2 pole tester. Just wanted to have a go at using them in practice.

Ive already completed my practicals in the college for the college. Took me end of Sept to end of Jan, to complete the year with the 10 hr assessment completed.

But in the real world I don't have that much experience aside from DIY.

So it'd be nice to get some practice in. As I'm pretty good at DIY as it is. But ofcourse we will get a sparky in when theh decide.