EV are they worth it?

[johnny2007]

You forgot the bit about them eating our babies too...

I leave that sort of boll@x to you.
I stick to facts.

 

[Avocet]

My personal thoughts on EV cars are that they are brilliant but catastrophically flawed in that they have a battery that has to be charged by the end user. This is also a battery that will degrade and render the car useless before the rest of it's components are worn out. I think a push needs to be made for an automated quick change battery/batteries. These batteries can be owned by BP/Shell or whoever and the end user just buys the fuel (the electricity). This would involve fixed standards for dimensions but capacities and technology could improve on the amount the batteries store and hence older EV's no longer have the issue of degradation.
People have doubted the idea but if I mention the Calor gas bottle that I use on my BBQ as an example, I'm sure a similar approach could be applied to batteries...

You'll be wanting a Nio then...

https://www.nio.com/nio-power

They're a Chinese sort of Tesla wannabe and they've just opened a battery swapping station in Norway. They have ambitious plans for battery swapping technology. And who knows? Maybe it's the right way to go. Personally, I have my doubts, but I can certainly see the appeal. The problem though, is that you won't just be paying for the electricity. You'll be paying for the rollout of those snazzy swap stations and the people to maintain them. You'll be paying a share of the depreciation o all the Nio batteries in circulation too - and, of course, a share of the warranty costs... I think it will work out quite expensive, to be honest, but I could easily be wrong!

The problem with doing it for all electric vehicles, is that you then stifle innovation. (Plus, of course, the more practical problems of needing to have a battery small and light enough for the smallest car, and large and powerful enough for the biggest cars). The trend in Europe, is for manufacturers to make the battery casing a structural part of the vehicle to save a bit of weight and protect it better in an accident. It's a difficult dilemma to manage.

 

[Avocet]

Duplicate post.

 

[Avocet]

I leave that sort of boll@x to you.
I stick to facts.

Yeah... so I see...

 

[Avocet]

As yet, the EV is still a modified recipating engine car. Together with all the weight they carry, side impact bars, and all the rest, we need the whole car to be lighter, and narrower, large cars don't fit in supermarket parking spaces.

Car manufacturers make what they think the public will want to buy. They are no different to any other sort of manufacturer in that respect. In the main, however, people don't want small cars. Smart cars are pretty small. Would you like a Smart car?

 

[Avocet]

I watched Channel 5 yesterday on when to buy an EV car, they were saying some time in the future we will all need to buy an EV, but when.

The problem is interesting as it pointed out the problem of finding a charging point which worked, since I still use cash, it seems I can't use one. One has to have a bank account and a card payment system to drive an EV car.

Charge time was also of interest, he plugged in where parking limited to one hour, so need a car which can recharge in less than an hour, or at least get enough power to get to next charge point.

It seems there is a range of charge rates, which not only depend on the recharging point, but also the car, 2.2kW granny charger, 3.5 kW early EV's, 7 kW most EV's today, 22 kW only cars which can take a three phase supply, many only charge at 7 kW even on a 22 kW charge point, DC charging or fast charging as it seems to be called, only available with some cars, if you can find a charging station.

The low charge rate means charge points can already be full.

As to home charging it seems some councils will fit gullies for the cable, so not a trip hazard, but be it at an EV charge point or home unlike filling with liquid fuel often no one in attendance to point out trip hazards.

Most local trips I can use public transport, when we NEED the car rather than select it because it is handy is the long trip, so even if only 1 or 2 long trips per year, they are the important ones, hospital is 25 miles away, so minimum distance is 50 mile, I have needed to go 40 miles to hospitals which specialise, so really 80 miles, also 70 miles return to where rest of family lives, so if not able to do 100 miles then a non starter, and I mean 100 miles with heater on etc, not shivering all the way to save electric.

There are clearly cars which can do the job, but last car cost me £6,000 and that is what I want to spend on a car, not after the lap of luxury, getting A to B and back is what I want, so 10 years old is fine.

I would say 20 years maximum life, once I am 90 not really going to want to drive, mileage around 6000 per annum likely less.

I think we need to keep a sense of perspective here. You've obviously over 70 now. The plan (and it won't be the first time a government has gone back on a plan!), is to end the sale of new ICE cars in 2030. By that time, I'm guessing you'll be 80 - or pretty close? By the time you're 90, (if they stick to the plan) the last ICE cars will only be 10 years old. How far past 90 were you thinking of continuing to drive?!

 

[flameport]

Re-fueling a with a jerry can of electrons is very different to re-fueling with a jerry can of hydro-carbons.

Not by much.
https://www.sparkcharge.io/

 

[IT Minion]

There's so much rubbish on this thread it's incredible.

At the moment if you drive lots of miles and have a driveway then an EV is probably worth it. They will cost less in total than a petrol/diesel and you emit less carbon.

If you don't do lots of miles (less than 10-15,000) then you're probably best off buying a petrol at the moment, both financially and for the environment.

For Eric: No, stick with your secondhand ICE vehicles.

 

[JohnD]

Yes.

I calculated the cost, and because purchase price is so high, neither a plug in hybrid nor an EV make economic sense for me, even after a 10 year projected ownership.

I expect prices will drop (and battery performance improve).

 

[Avocet]

There's so much rubbish on this thread it's incredible.

At the moment if you drive lots of miles and have a driveway then an EV is probably worth it. They will cost less in total than a petrol/diesel and you emit less carbon.

If you don't do lots of miles (less than 10-15,000) then you're probably best off buying a petrol at the moment, both financially and for the environment.

For Eric: No, stick with your secondhand ICE vehicles.

Maybe a bit of an over-simplification? The problem with regarding "better" (or worse) for the environment as a tick box, is that it doesn't really take into account the fact that it can be both. A relatively low mileage in a densely-populated urban area will have different environmental implications than the same mileage in a rural area, for example. The car that is "better for the environment" on CO2, might not be so when it comes to air quality.

 

[IT Minion]

Maybe a bit of an over-simplification? The problem with regarding "better" (or worse) for the environment as a tick box, is that it doesn't really take into account the fact that it can be both. A relatively low mileage in a densely-populated urban area will have different environmental implications than the same mileage in a rural area, for example. The car that is "better for the environment" on CO2, might not be so when it comes to air quality.

You're right, it's a very simplified view but I think it's a good rule of thumb.

The factor that doesn't get counted is that there is more demand for EVs than supply. So when someone buys an EV and then doesn't use it to replace ICE miles then it's of less value to the environment. A Tesla doing 30,000 miles a year as a taxi does more good than a Tesla parked on a driveway.

 

[Avocet]

You're right, it's a very simplified view but I think it's a good rule of thumb.

The factor that doesn't get counted is that there is more demand for EVs than supply. So when someone buys an EV and then doesn't use it to replace ICE miles then it's of less value to the environment. A Tesla doing 30,000 miles a year as a taxi does more good than a Tesla parked on a driveway.

Doesn't that go for all cars?

 

[IT Minion]

Doesn't that go for all cars?

Other EVs exist.

EVs have a larger amount of embodied energy than an ICE. Charging them emits less CO2 than an ICE per mile. As long as you do enough miles in them then they come out ahead, but if you just do 6,000 miles a year then you may never reach that point.

The amount of CO2 emitted in battery manufacture is dropping as electricity grids become cleaner, so that minimum milage level is dropping each year, but it's still there.

 

[Avocet]

Other EVs exist.

EVs have a larger amount of embodied energy than an ICE. Charging them emits less CO2 than an ICE per mile. As long as you do enough miles in them then they come out ahead, but if you just do 6,000 miles a year then you may never reach that point.

The amount of CO2 emitted in battery manufacture is dropping as electricity grids become cleaner, so that minimum milage level is dropping each year, but it's still there.

That's only considering CO2 though. That's not the only environmental consideration. A recent paper suggested something like 48,000 miles for current EVs (on average) to break even on CO2 with their ICE counterparts - and as you say, the figure is coming down, not only as manufacturing techniques improve, but as the percentage of renewables in the electricity generation goes up. As a long time "petrolhead", it pains me to admit it, but there's no ICE vehicle whose CO2 emissions will get BETTER with age!

On the other hand, when we look at air quality, there's a lot of work going on with particulate emissions from tyres and brakes just now. Seems they're a couple of thousand (yes, thousand!) times worse than anything that currently comes out of the tailpipe. That will be bad news for EV advocates, of course. (Though also bad for ICE vehicles). I expect it will be a year or so before that story gets out and the politicians cotton-on. There could be quite strong arguments for leaving them on the drive!

 

[DiyNutJob]

As a long time "petrolhead", it pains me to admit it, but there's no ICE vehicle whose CO2 emissions will get BETTER with age!

It just shows your lack of experience. As my car and I get older, I drive less, and less enthusiastically. Consequently, my CO2 emissions are dropping. Since I don't have battery packs to replace, my environmental impact is less than the EV owners. In fact, I have just put back into service my 18 year old lead acid. It limps along fine mid-spring to mid-autumn while supported by a perma-connected solar panel.