Get the Tories Out!

[^woody^]

Wait, you think Brown was worse than all the prime minister's we've had since?

It was a close tie with May.

May was just incapable, whilst Brown was inept. The only real damage May did was to her party - by giving Corbyn hope and losing her majority, whilst Brown really fukked up the country, with us still paying today.

 

[securespark]

And the others you haven't mentioned.

Did they mess up the country?

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Seems like a pretty good summary of all politicians to me. What are they doing or not doing that's different to the existing parties? They give a list of plans, people vote for them or they don't, then they do (or often don't) enact them.

I'm not a Reform candidate or even a member, you're not going to disprove anything or trash my arguments by finding fault with them, I'm sure they have many. I'm just saying I'm picking them as my choice as the best of a bad bunch, and I suspect I'm part of a currently small snowball that's picking up pace pretty rapidly and is likely to get much, much bigger. Hopefully this will have a permanent effect on our voting system and we can get out of this duopoly, and end up with serious politicians discussing things like grown-ups instead of the current punch and judy show we pretend is a democracy.

Great thoughts, but naive.

Just take the 1 hot item, immigration and think it through. Just how are they going to sort it ? Details please ?

Then compare it to the current lots, plans, ideas and promises. They have been promising to sort it, but have just kept it as a tool to keep support.

It is currently just used to make people angry and vote for more. Reform will be no different without a solid plan. As far As I can see they haven't got details.

Making Britain Great again ! Now where have I heard something like that before?

Great Britain is a geographical term, not a political 1.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

It was a close tie with May.

May was just incapable, whilst Brown was inept. The only real damage May did was to her party - by giving Corbyn hope and losing her majority, whilst Brown really fukked up the country, with us still paying today.

You just need to take your blinkers off for a bit

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Just take the 1 hot item, immigration and think it through. Just how are they going to sort it ? Details please ?

They've said they're going to stop it. I doubt they will, but it indicates a direction of travel at least. They have said they are going to leave the ECHR, which at least means they won't have both arms tied around their back.

So, if you think they won't solve it, do you know of a party that you're absolutely confident will deal with the issue? Or do you think that keeping it uncontrolled is absolutely fine?

The current approach appears to be to talk tough while doing nothing. If any party really thinks it's good for the UK to allow loads of people in then at least openly state and argue this rather than pretending to have one policy while pursuing another.

 

[JohnD]

You can always check the understanding of such people by asking what was their whole investment portfolio spread including risk strategy in 2000.

Me, I bought a pair of gold-plated earrings for Mrs W, and a gold Sharpie for writing birthday cards. All my other investments were in Bosch and Stanley.

How about you?

So you didn't see gold as a good investment.

You didn't disagree with Brown

You've just read that you should be wise after the event.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

They've said they're going to stop it. I doubt they will, but it indicates a direction of travel at least. They have said they are going to leave the ECHR, which at least means they won't have both arms tied around their back.

So, if you think they won't solve it, do you know of a party that you're absolutely confident will deal with the issue? Or do you think that keeping it uncontrolled is absolutely fine?

The current approach appears to be to talk tough while doing nothing. If any party really thinks it's good for the UK to allow loads of people in then at least openly state and argue this rather than pretending to have one policy while pursuing another.

as I've said. Great, but naive.

until any party brings forward a solid workable answer about immigration I won't believe any of them. Especially a newcomer that wants to be taken seriouly but has no details of ideas of what to do differently.

leave the ECHR, be careful what you wish for too. What's wrong with Human Rights exactly ?

You a fan of Trump by any chance ?

 

[JohnD]

It was a close tie with May.

May was just incapable, whilst Brown was inept. The only real damage May did was to her party - by giving Corbyn hope and losing her majority, whilst Brown really fukked up the country, with us still paying today.

And Johnson recklessly damaged the country for a bit of fun.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

You a fan of Trump by any chance ?

I don't think you're really helping your argument or the cause of interesting debate by caricaturing or lobbing in an insult if you hear something you don't like.

For the record, the bloke was/is an idiot. It only serves the status quo to blanket paint all parties or policies with nonsense labels of "right", "left", "populist" or whatever, all of which are pretty meaningless words and are often just meant as insults, usually used after losing the logical argument.

So... any news on whatever party you belong to is intending to do about immigration, if anything, or just more rubbishing of the others?

 

[carmanmemoranda]

I don't think you're really helping your argument or the cause of interesting debate by caricaturing or lobbing in an insult if you hear something you don't like.

For the record, the bloke was/is an idiot. It only serves the status quo to blanket paint all parties or policies with nonsense labels of "right", "left", "populist" or whatever, all of which are pretty meaningless words and are often just meant as insults, usually used after losing the logical argument.

Just the association with slogans.

But stick to the point? Does your party have anything more than slogans ?

If not, you might see my point.


For the record, it doesn't matter if I like what you say or not. You have the right to vote for who you want. But if you want to spout support, you might want to have something to shout about? There's nothing yet on show.

 

[JohnD]

You have the right to vote for who you want.

Not if his imaginary "party" doesn't have a candidate.

 

[Pat ex]

So... any news on whatever party you belong to is intending to do about immigration, if anything, or just more rubbishing of the others?

It's about the same amount of difficulty as doing away with the NHS. Or an overhaul of taxation, or re-thinking the railways.
It shouldn't start with a bright idea and allow to develop into a monster, by which time the solutions look as extreme as the problems.

But do we have the kind of government that can and will re-think a model that obviously isn't working?
I think that's a rhetorical question.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

I find it interesting that people actually get personally offended and appear hurt as a result of a political debate, and even start verbally lashing out.

For me it's like choosing between Andrex or Bumfresh - it's just a choice of which to buy based on merit, and I might pick a different one next time I'm shopping. No party is "my" party, and I definitely intend to keep things this way.

For others it appears to be the equivalent of saying something about their mum if you say there's anything bad about their mob, or even that there may be something good about one of the others. Weird, but it's interesting not only that opinions differ but that to some it seems infinitely more close to the heart than merely a choice of the least terrible box to tick every few years.

We still haven't heard what whatever tribe Carman... belongs to will or won't do about immigration, just angry rants about anything but.

It looks to me like the Tories are deliberately allowing it to carry on, to suppress the wages of the workers and to enrich the employers, while pretending to the electorate that they care about them, but it's now worn so thin you can see right through it. Meanwhile the Labour party are so tangled up in right-on liberal elite nonsense that they're unable to have a policy on anything in case it offends anyone somehow, all of which often acts directly against the working classes that they once claimed to represent.

My point is not that the Reform party are geniuses, perfect or that they'll save the world. You're not hurting me by saying there are things wrong with them, of course there will be. It's pretty likely they'll put up lots of candidates next time around, some may even be current Tory MPs by the sounds of some rumours. I'm saying I'll probably vote for them next time around, and I suspect I'll be one of many, and this could result in an interesting election result that may end up in changing the electoral system, hopefully for good. This would result in a more grown-up system in which MPs belong to a much larger number of parties, they actually look after their constituents instead of themselves and their party, it could be good for everyone (except the big two current parties).

 

[Deleted member 18243]

My point is not that the Reform party are geniuses, perfect or that they'll save the world. You're not hurting me by saying there are things wrong with them, of course there will be. It's pretty likely they'll put up lots of candidates next time around, some may even be current Tory MPs by the sounds of some rumours. I'm saying I'll probably vote for them next time around, and I suspect I'll be one of many, and this could result in an interesting election result that may end up in changing the electoral system, hopefully for good. This would result in a more grown-up system in which MPs belong to a much larger number of parties, they actually look after their constituents instead of themselves and their party, it could be good for everyone (except the big two current parties).

I don't hold much hope for the Reform party. Neither they, Farage or people like Lawrence Fox seem serious or committed enough. They recognise the problems but don't offer any solutions. I cannot see any future government being anything other than the uniparty. The only thing that could change it is a revolution / uprising, which won't happen because we are British, or an invasion by a friendly foreign power, which won't happen as that kind of thing only happened in history. The future is dwindling numbers of British Christian people and ever-increasing numbers of foreign ghettoes living in isolation from each other, knee deep in litter; the stench of cannabis everywhere and miles and miles of graffiti-covered roller shutters.

All because of Tony Blair.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

I find it interesting that people actually get personally offended and appear hurt as a result of a political debate, and even start verbally lashing out.

For me it's like choosing between Andrex or Bumfresh - it's just a choice of which to buy based on merit, and I might pick a different one next time I'm shopping. No party is "my" party, and I definitely intend to keep things this way.

For others it appears to be the equivalent of saying something about their mum if you say there's anything bad about their mob, or even that there may be something good about one of the others. Weird, but it's interesting not only that opinions differ but that to some it seems infinitely more close to the heart than merely a choice of the least terrible box to tick every few years.

We still haven't heard what whatever tribe Carman... belongs to will or won't do about immigration, just angry rants about anything but.

It looks to me like the Tories are deliberately allowing it to carry on, to suppress the wages of the workers and to enrich the employers, while pretending to the electorate that they care about them, but it's now worn so thin you can see right through it. Meanwhile the Labour party are so tangled up in right-on liberal elite nonsense that they're unable to have a policy on anything in case it offends anyone somehow, all of which often acts directly against the working classes that they once claimed to represent.

My point is not that the Reform party are geniuses, perfect or that they'll save the world. You're not hurting me by saying there are things wrong with them, of course there will be. It's pretty likely they'll put up lots of candidates next time around, some may even be current Tory MPs by the sounds of some rumours. I'm saying I'll probably vote for them next time around, and I suspect I'll be one of many, and this could result in an interesting election result that may end up in changing the electoral system, hopefully for good. This would result in a more grown-up system in which MPs belong to a much larger number of parties, they actually look after their constituents instead of themselves and their party, it could be good for everyone (except the big two current parties).

Offended ? Hurt ?

I don't have any political party, I'm a floating voter. For me the next election will be about far more than the immigration issue. That is just being used as a tool, to keep support, or in Reforms case, gain support. If that, and their promise of action is sufficient for you or anybody, then feel free to support them.

I want some concrete ideas and proposals before I even consider them as a party. The easy slogans, effective as they are, are just set out to get easy lazy support.

Before you push them as a party to vote for , I trust you have looked at every other main party proposals. But I doubt that