Good riddance tobacco!

[AronSearle]

No but I know a few and they aren't the least bit afraid of the law as it stands.

If sentencing is significantly changed, and the demand for smuggled goods stays as it is or increases.

Do you think they will stop smuggling, or do you think they will do what "normal" criminal gangs do, which is to start meeting out violence to protect themselves.

Do you think more serious criminals will become involved in illicit or smuggled tobacco, as opposed to some of it being carried out by "white van men".

Doesn't the prospect of more criminality concern you?

Or do you genuinely think it is not a risk?



And joe, I am interested in a proper response and not "do you want to legalise crystal meth" blablabla.

 

[joe-90]

The law can easily crush a gang of any size - that's why banks aren't robbed willy-nilly. I reckon we should sell crystal meth in the newsagents. Good idea eh? Or maybe a line of coke instead of a bottle. Free choice isn't it? You wouldn't want criminal gangs selling cocaine now would you?

 

[AronSearle]

The law can easily crush a gang of any size

number of the criminal gangs in the United Kingdom specialize in the importation, production and sale of illicit drugs. Of the 2,800 gangs identified within the United Kingdom it is estimated that 60% are involved in drugs.[60] Amongst them are the Yardies, also known as Posses in America, who are generally associated with crack cocaine. In 2003, it was reported that Yardie drug gangs were present in 36 of the 43 police force areas in England and Wales.

- that's why banks aren't robbed willy-nilly.

Probably more to do with timed vaults, more electronic transfers and better "chasing" resources such as copters with infra-red.

None of which helps stop smuggling.

 

[chapeau]

Let their kids starve then.

Tee Hee Joe, you are such a card.

"Let Them Collect Coke Bottles"

(Apologies to Mme Antoinette)

 

[joe-90]

She never said that 'cake' thing. Where's your education, man?

 

[chapeau]

I don't have one Joe.

As we agreed only recently one goes to academic instutions to be taught and trained, you don't go there to be educated.

I have been taught, you have been educated.

 

[JohnD]

Come on JohnD, debate the issue.

Sadly you don't seem interested.

The OP posted about reducing demand for cigarettes over the next 20 years. Nothing about a ban. Nothing about making smoking a criminal activity. But you react as if that's what was being suggested!

So you aren't arguing with the proposal, you're arguing with something that you've made up yourself. That isn't debate.

From you, we have had nonsense such as:

"As long as you don't mind me seeking to ban things you do, cus they annoy me."

"No, I want to see it banned or more highly restricted and taxed because that won't lead to gang crime, dangerous counterfeits, and will make our kids safer "

"Counterfeit alcohol recently seized in Derby contained seven times the permitted levels of cadmium, which can cause kidney damage, and six times the permitted levels of lead, which can harm the nervous and reproductive systems. "

"Oh, I'm sorry, should I be thinking of the Chiiildreeeen!!"

"No, I don't "support" smoking, I just accept that criminalisation would be a worse solution. "

"And after we have changed human nature, we can genetically engineer pigs to fly."

"It's an authoritarianism vs libertarian issue."

"You are all fools buying into this crap that this is about health, this is just the government manipulating people so they can wack them with large taxes, which they can spend on pet projects, bondoggoles, MP wages, and of course to pay for their subsidised drinks in the house of parliament."

"This is a dangerous precedent, that everyone should be against, because it will result in a slipper slope of increasing amounts of "lifestyle choices" making you discriminated against, or taxed more "for your own good"."

"It will be interesting to see what happens when they develop an anti-cancer pill, that will p**s of the anti smoker brigade no end."

"anti smokers are all about telling others what to do and how to do it."

"Why are you proposing taxes on ovens, why are you trying to tax poor people trying to feed themselves?"

"banning it is a folly that will do more damage than good, something you don't even gloss over, but just point blank ignore."

"My future kids will be to busy taking meph, cocain, alcahol and eating fatty foods, can't afford to get them smoking as well, not enough time in the day."


So, lots and lots of words from you (some of them very silly) that are nothing to do with what the OP suggested.

I suppose that's to be expected, if you can't think of a way to claim sensibly that it is anything but a Good Idea to discourage smoking and reduce the number of youngsters who take it up and become addicts.

BTW I think it's fantastic news that the proportion of 16 to 19 year-olds who smoke has dropped from 40% in 1974 to 19% in 2010. Let's hope we can keep reducing it.

See fig. 6.2
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/can...moking/lung-cancer-and-smoking-statistics#age

The proportion of over 60's smoking has dropped from 34% to 13%. We know why there are so few old smokers.

 

[killerheels]

BTW I think it's fantastic news that the proportion of 16 to 19 year-olds who smoke has dropped from 40% in 1974 to 19% in 2010. Let's hope we can keep reducing it.

Yes.. well .. I'm happy you're so happy! But perhaps someone ought to close the stable door before the horse has bolted on these if the main aim of your argument is NOT free choice ... but enforcing a healthy lifestyle, especially regarding younger generations

Binge drinking is most common among 16–24-year-olds , and is more common among men than women. The General Lifestyle Survey 2008 showed that 21% of men and 14% of women drank more than double the daily unit guidelines on at least one day in the previous week.
http://www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/binge-drinking

Obesity amongst children in the UK is on the increase with 27 percent of children now obese (seriously overweight).
http://www.goodtoknow.co.uk/wellbeing/133337/Obesity-in-children

Smoking = 19%
Binge drinking = 21% men. 14% women.
Obesity in children = 27%

Before you ask I agree smoking is unhealthy.
I also still maintain that the current witchhunt focuses on smoking to the exclusion of all the other rapidy growing problem areas.
Either the goverment addresses all of them. Or leaves us to go to hell our own way.

ps. “Take obesity: it already costs our NHS a staggering £4 billion a year. But within four years, that figure’s expected to rise to £6.3 billion.” David Cameron, 16 May 2011.
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/NHS_...ity_costs_foresight_Department_of_Health-2732

 

[JohnD]

...if the main aim of your argument is NOT free choice ... but enforcing a healthy lifestyle, especially regarding younger generations...

FFS why do you keep making this up?

I have never said I am in favour of a ban or making smoking a criminal offence.

If you have to invent things in order to argue with yourself, you are not debating.

 

[AronSearle]

Sadly you don't seem interested.

Yeaaa, I'm continuing to post in a multi page thread, because I am not interested.

Makes sense.

I specifically countered the plain packaging proposal, linked in the OP, mentioned by you, what was your response?

Oh yea.........................nothing.....................

The OP posted about reducing demand for cigarettes over the next 20 years. Nothing about a ban. Nothing about making smoking a criminal activity. But you react as if that's what was being suggested!

You do know that ASH, one of the pharma and government funded lobbies in the OP have actually lobbied for further bans, currently to ban it in cars?

A quote from the OP article

"The Department of Health says it is open-minded about new restrictions"

And another quote.

" UK campaigners have been spurred on by initiatives elsewhere, including attempts in Australia to make it illegal to sell tobacco to anyone born after the year 2000.

Ms Rutter said public opinion has changed in recent years and that she believes the tide is turning against smoking.

"We really can push further," she said. "We can make smoking history, and I do truly believe that it's the right thing to do."

Yea, sure, these people are going to stop and not at all possibly push for illegalisation

 

[doitall]

Someone called "Siggy67" has just signed up now you in trouble.

 

[JohnD]

you agree that the OP did not propose a ban or criminalisation.

you agree that I did not propose a ban or criminalisation.

so you are arguing with someone, not on this thread, and what you think they might, or might not, possibly propose at some indeterminate future date, maybe.

So you aren't arguing with the proposal, you're arguing with something that you've made up yourself. That isn't debate.

 

[doitall]

It's still all about Gov.con the control freaks taking over out lives and ordering us when the breath.

The new fire safe cigs which are being forced on the smoker by america and now europe contains carper glue and is 3 time more dangerous than the present fags.

 

[JohnD]

It's still all about Gov.con the control freaks taking over out lives and ordering us when the breath.

No, it's about discouraging children and young people from taking up a dangerous addiction, and assisting existing addicts who want to give up.

There's no "control" or "ordering"

 

[doitall]

No, it's all about the Gov.con and europe controlling our lives, and if you don't believe me make a note of the time and day, and come back in 10 years.