Interest only, electric car charging points 7 kW or 22 kW?

[Avocet]

But when they are placed in what are car parks, then people entering the car park just to charge their car are treated as if they are car park users, not charging point users.

Same as ericmarks problem with using a McDonalds drive-through, and this sort of thing will continue for as long as we have companies whose only business is "managing" the car parks and which only becomes a profitable enough one when they penalise users for infractions.

The Supreme Court has a lot to answer for.

In the majority of cases, it'll be a non-issue. Despite what some on here would have us believe, most of these places will offer at least 1 hour's free parking, and most of the chargers will be 50kW or over, so cars would be highly unlikely to sit on them for more than an hour. Anyone selfish enough to tie up a public charger after their car has finished charging, deserves all they get!

 

[IT Minion]

Enough that they got a huge electric bill over the winter months but no payment for the power used, they must have been sitting in the car for ages unplugging and plugging back in, and it was not just once. It was being done overnight, so no one realised what was going on, so 22 kW for 15 minutes = 5.5 kWh each time it was done, I can't find business electric rates they are higher than domestic, but even domestic it is £1.70 per hit, so around £7+ per hour, since the supply only feeds the EV charge point, it is easy to see how much is being used. Had other items been on the same supply, it may have been missed.

When EV charging points were first fitted the cost of electric was a lot lower, in fact low enough for some shops to offer free charging, this is no longer the case, at 7 kW it would be hardly worth sitting there plugging in and out all night, but at 22 kW it is a different story.

If only there were some way to capture images of the person doing it and then sending them a bill.

 

[morqthana]

In the majority of cases, it'll be a non-issue. Despite what some on here would have us believe, most of these places will offer at least 1 hour's free parking, and most of the chargers will be 50kW or over, so cars would be highly unlikely to sit on them for more than an hour. Anyone selfish enough to tie up a public charger after their car has finished charging, deserves all they get!

IIRC the problem reported by the guy on ftla was that he turned up, there were no empty charge points, and by the time he'd waited for one and then charged his car, he was over the time. I don't think either he or anybody else was hogging a space. It would be a bit like those times when there are petrol shortages, and you have to queue for the pumps for half an hour but then get ticketed because ANPR had you there for more than the 20 minutes you're allowed....

 

[morqthana]

If only there were some way to capture images of the person doing it and then sending them a bill.

If they'd thought to

a) State that you only got 1 free 15-minute stint.
b) Word it so that the non-payment becomes a parking issue, not an electricity use one, as POFA 2012 only provides for collection of parking fees, not any old debt
c) Register with an appropriate body to be allowed to get keeper details from the DVLA.

 

[IT Minion]

If they'd thought to

a) State that you only got 1 free 15-minute stint.
b) Word it so that the non-payment becomes a parking issue, not an electricity use one, as POFA 2012 only provides for collection of parking fees, not any old debt
c) Register with an appropriate body to be allowed to get keeper details from the DVLA.

It's simpler than that if it's a repeat offender. You send them a letter stating they're barred and are not to use the charger again and continued use will be billed. Then small claims court.

 

[morqthana]

How do you know who they are?

How do you get an address to serve them?

What if you cannot, and "they" will not, identify the driver?

What if by error or omission you've not worded the offer of free charging in a way which makes multiple uses wrong?

 

[flameport]

15 minutes of free charging is a failure of the charge point operator. Absolutely no reason for such a thing to exist.
You pay - you charge.
No payment - no charging, not even for 1 second.

If a car park charges for parking, then whoever is parked in it should pay. Doesn't matter whether they are charging a vehicle or not.
The presence of an EV charging facility does not alter the fact that they went there to park a vehicle.

People need to forget about driving to a special place to charge - you charge when it's available at wherever you were going to anyway.
You drive to the destination, and if that is a place that charges for parking, you pay for parking.
If that place also has EV charging then you pay for that if you use it.

 

[IT Minion]

15 minutes of free charging is a failure of the charge point operator. Absolutely no reason for such a thing to exist.
You pay - you charge.
No payment - no charging, not even for 1 second.

If a car park charges for parking, then whoever is parked in it should pay. Doesn't matter whether they are charging a vehicle or not.
The presence of an EV charging facility does not alter the fact that they went there to park a vehicle.

People need to forget about driving to a special place to charge - you charge when it's available at wherever you were going to anyway.
You drive to the destination, and if that is a place that charges for parking, you pay for parking.
If that place also has EV charging then you pay for that if you use it.

It's a 'feature' of AC podpoint machines. They installed the wrong kit.

 

[morqthana]

15 minutes of free charging is a failure of the charge point operator. Absolutely no reason for such a thing to exist.
You pay - you charge.
No payment - no charging, not even for 1 second.

Indeed.

Can you imagine the queues and chaos if a filling station advertise "first 10 litres free", even if they did stop drivers putting in 10l, leaving, joining the back of the queue and putting in another 10l?

If a car park charges for parking, then whoever is parked in it should pay. Doesn't matter whether they are charging a vehicle or not.
The presence of an EV charging facility does not alter the fact that they went there to park a vehicle.

No, they went there to charge their car. Yes, they had to stop in a designated space, and switch off.

When I go to put petrol in my car, I have to go to a particular place, stop in a designated space, switch off, and recharge my tank. Because of the nature of the process I will remain there for, say, 5 minutes.

I would never agree with the suggestion that I had gone there to park, nor I suspect would any other driver. In all my years of driving I've never known a garage try to add parking charges to my bill for petrol, nor I suspect has any other driver.

How successful a venture would it be for, say, Motor Fuel Group to close all their forecourts and announce that henceforth they'd be operating pumps from within commercial car parks, so if you wanted to fill up with petrol/diesel you'd have to pay the car park fee as well?

Would their business thrive, or would it crash and burn?

So why should it be different with EVs? Apart from the unavoidable difference in the nature of the process that means the driver has to remain there for 15-30-60-whatever minutes, the overall shape is the same.

Arrive.
Stop.
Take on fuel.
Pay for fuel.
Leave.

People need to forget about driving to a special place to charge

Bit tricky at the moment, just like it is, has always been, and will always be tricky to say "A quarter pounder with cheese, fries, medium diet coke and 50 litres of E10 please"

- you charge when it's available at wherever you were going to anyway.
You drive to the destination, and if that is a place that charges for parking, you pay for parking.
If that place also has EV charging then you pay for that if you use it.

And if you weren't "going there anyway"?

What if you only went there to charge your car, because your "People need to forget about driving to a special place to charge" is a pipe-dream because there simply is nowhere to charge your car except bays in commercial car parks because that's the only places they've put chargers?

What we need are chargers in places where you don't have to pay to get in or remain.

 

[ericmark]

Since under 50 amp the new law will not affect it, so it will be simply a case of turning it off until podpoint change the way it is paid for.

Now it is known what was going on, simple turn off charger, two days on car park duty, must have parked 100's of cars for the gala, one car used the charging point, and he was next door neighbour. Yes I have seen both bays in use, but with now another 6 charging bays in the village, loosing the two where I work for over night charging is no great loss.

 

[morqthana]

but with now another 6 charging bays in the village,

Do you have to pay to be near them, or just for the leccy you use?

 

[ericmark]

Do you have to pay to be near them, or just for the leccy you use?

Just for electric most of the year, only when the gala is on is car parking charged for.

 

[morqthana]

Mm.

You see I think that EV charging bays should be regarded as parking spaces as often as the spaces next to petrol pumps are.

 

[ericmark]

Mm.

You see I think that EV charging bays should be regarded as parking spaces as often as the spaces next to petrol pumps are.

Yes idea is they park in the EV bay then have a ride on a steam train while waiting for it to charge, yes it is not very environmentally friendly riding on a steam train, but there are not that many left, yes new have been built, Corris for example, but although roller races rather than white metal bearings, it used an old design, so it looks the same as the Tallyllyn engine which was the original Corris one.

But yes the whole concept has changed, EV's are charged when parked, rather than parked to charge. But when an EV turns into the railway at gala the question is "do you want charging" and in the main the answer is no, not surprising when it cost 5 times what is costs to charge at home.

 

[flameport]

So why should it be different with EVs? Apart from the unavoidable difference in the nature of the process that means the driver has to remain there for 15-30-60-whatever minutes, the overall shape is the same.

It's entirely different because you are confusing two unrelated situations.

Some charging will be on rapid DC, where the entire charge takes 10 or 20 minutes. Typical use case is a motorway service area, and it's done that way because it's the only realistic option for that situation.

Most EV charging should be on AC destination chargers, where it could take 2,4,6 or even more hours.
You drive to wherever it is you are going.
You plug in to charge.
When you have done whatever it is you went there to do, your car has been charged and you can drive to the next location.

How long it took to charge is irrelevant. So is whether it was charged to 100% or not.

You drive to a hotel to stay overnight.
You park in the car park. That may or may not require payment.
You plug in your car.
The next morning, the car is charged.
Replace hotel with any other location, and overnight with any other time period of a couple of hours or more.

Most cars spend most of their time parked somewhere - that is where most charging should be done.
Currently there are a severe lack of such charging facilities - but more are being installed every day.

The concept of driving to a special place to obtain fuel is a requirement of diesel and petrol cars.
EVs are not used like that, and anyone attempting to do so will have massive problems very quickly.