LABC being uncooperative

Thanks.. I thought BS7671 covered testing procedures which included the dead & live tests you've mentioned?
It does. I think TTC probably misunderstood what you wrote.
I don't know how much sympathy I can muster for my LABC... not only are they simply lying about my right to do this work, but they usually contract out the I&T, and they don't need to do respond to my notification, so it's not like their workload just doubled..
Agreed. However, although they don't need to 'respond to your notification' initially, I wouldn't have thought that they could refuse to issue a Completion Certificate unless they had evidence (only available from I&T) of some non-compliance, could they?

Kind Regards, John
 
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Faulty cables are by no means the only cause of low insulation resistance. Do you have the means of measure loop impedances etc. (EFLI, Zs or whatever)?
I believe this could be tested with a decent multimeter? I've got a TN-S system for what it's worth
 
I also wanted to go down the LABC compliance certificate. They did not refuse, but wanted to use third party inspectors which I would need to pay for.
... which makes total sense, doesn't it?
Also power removed while I did the work, and not put on again until a satisfactory report is filed. So looking at a week without power.
I've never heard of that one, doubt that they have the authority to impose such a requirement and can't see how they could attempt to 'enforce' it.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I believe this could be tested with a decent multimeter?
You can measure R1+R2 with a low-ohms meter (you really need a resolution of around 0.01Ω), but regular multimeters are not necessarily capable of that. However, more to the point, you can't measure total loop impedance (ii.e. Zs, including Ze as well as R1+R2) with a multimeter, and you need to determine Zs to confirm that the circuit's overcurrent protection is satisfactory. In the absence of a proper loop iompedance tester, you would have to 'guess' the value of Ze.

As for insulation resistance etc., multimeters use only voltages in the 1.5V - 9V range, whereas one needs to test at at least 250V, more commonly 500V.

Kind Regards, John
 
Please would you quote the section of Approved Document Part P which states that, when using the LABC rather than a Competent Person or Third Party Certification scheme, the installer must inspect and test their installation?
As I understand it, it doesn't say it directly, but it says

"Electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS 7671:2008
incorporating Amendment No 1:2011"

"The information should comprise items listed in BS 7671 and other appropriate information
including:
a. electrical installation certificates or reports describing the installation and giving details of the
work carried out"

IIRC BS7671 requires installations to be tested, and you certainly need test results to fill out a standard BS7671 installation certificate.
 
I looked at this option about 11 years ago. Your LABC should have a table of fees on their website- for notifiable electrical work back then it was about £600. For what i needed doing it was much cheaper to get a real electrician in to fit the CU and bathroom stuff, he was giggling about the 4 ring final circuits each with 2 sockets on once i explained i'd be adding to them as i finished each room.
 
you really need a resolution of around 0.01Ω
You also need a relatively high test current. I've tried to measure tiny resistances with an expensive bench meter and while it had plenty of resolution due to the large number of digits, it just did not produce stable results.

The bottom line is that to properly test electrical installations you need either a set of installation test meters (low ohms, Insulation resistance, RCD test and loop impedance) or you need a multifunction tester that combines those functions.
 
As I understand it, it doesn't say it directly, but it says ... "Electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS 7671:2008
incorporating Amendment No 1:2011"
Indeed so - and I would hope that we all know that. However, what we are talking about is who does the testing -and if one is paying £££ to utilise the "LABC route" for notification, then a significant part of that £££ is for the LABC to undertake, or at least pay for someone to undertake, the I&T, isn't it?
IIRC BS7671 requires installations to be tested, and you certainly need test results to fill out a standard BS7671 installation certificate.
Indeed it does - but that's true of all electrical work, whether minor or major, notifiable or not, and regardless who does it - and is the thing that we have to recognise the great majority of electrical DIYers cannot do (fully), because they will rarely have the equipment required for all the testing. However, if we felt strongly about that 'deficiency', all we could so would be to say that very little DIY electrical work should be done/'allowed' (and that forums such as this one should therefore be shut down).

Kind Regards, John
 
I looked at this option about 11 years ago. Your LABC should have a table of fees on their website- for notifiable electrical work back then it was about £600. For what i needed doing it was much cheaper to get a real electrician in to fit the CU and bathroom stuff
It varies a lot between LAs. The current one for where I live is:

1691110609600.png


The LA where I have another property is more complicated (see below). If they judge the person doing the work to be adequately qualified, and if that person provides an EIC, but the person is not a member of a CPS, they charge Just £168, with no additional charge for inspection' (goodness know what, if anything, they do for that £168 :) ).

On the other hand, if the person is not suitably qualified and/or if an EIC will not be given ,(and, by implication, is not a member of a CPS, they charge an unspecified ("Individually quoted" and, per the note below, will also charge an (again unspecified) amount for the I&T!

1691112842443.png


Kind Regards, John
 
You also need a relatively high test current. I've tried to measure tiny resistances with an expensive bench meter and while it had plenty of resolution due to the large number of digits, it just did not produce stable results.
That's probably theoretically true but, for what its worth, my Fluke 1362 only uses about 4V for low resistance measurements - presumably no more than can/could be achieved by a bench meter or a portable DVM which uses a 9V battery. Furthermore, I would expect that any error in measure very small resistances (due to low current or whatever) are very likely to be in what is usually the 'safe' direction (giving readings which are too high).

Measuring "tiny resistances" with anything is, of course, very iffy, since by far the most crucial factor is the quality (low resistance) of the contact between the probes and what is being measured.
The bottom line is that to properly test electrical installations you need either a set of installation test meters (low ohms, Insulation resistance, RCD test and loop impedance) or you need a multifunction tester that combines those functions.
I can't disagree with that, although one can do a fair bit with just a decent DVM.

However, to get back in context, if a non-electrician is paying an LABC £££ for 'direct notification' it should be them who are responsible for getting the accurate measurements - since there assumption is that the person doing the work is either not competent or not adequately equipped to do it.

As implied by the second set of figures I've recently posted, perhaps one of the biggest rip-offs seems to happen when the person doing the work is an adequate qualified and equipped electrician who provides and EIC but just isn't a member of a CPS. It appears that the LABC then accept the work, I&T and EIC, but charge £168 for 'something' :)

Kind Regards, John
 
That's probably theoretically true but, for what its worth, my Fluke 1362 only uses about 4V for low resistance measurements - presumably no more than can/could be achieved by a bench meter or a portable DVM which uses a 9V battery.
Multimeters in resistance mode normally act as current sources. I just checked a couple of meters that were to hand and they both used currents of around 1.5mA in their most sensitive resistance mode. I don't think expensive meters are substantially different in this regard but i don't have one to hand right now to check. That means 1 ohm is 1.5 millivolt, 0.1 ohm is 150 microvolts and 0.01 ohms is 15 microvolts.

It's clear that battery voltage is not the limiting factor here. I strongly suspect the reason is that people expect to use multimeters on sensitive electronics and going any higher would risk damaging said electronics. Battery life may also be a concern.

Your fluke meter by contrast gives a choice of 10ma or 250mA.

Measuring "tiny resistances" with anything is, of course, very iffy, since by far the most crucial factor is the quality (low resistance)
My bitter experience is that contacts don't behave like resistors.

You are probablly right it will err on the safe side, it's just likely to err sufficiently far on the "safe" side that you will have difficulting distinguishing a pass from a fail.
 
I'm struggling to understand exactly where you are 'coming from'.

The OP's home may well have existing faults, that the existing CU will not "spot" - change to a unit with RCD's and they could be faced with a situation where the RCD's won't hold.

What don't you understand about this?
 
Once the application is accepted the LABC is responsible for safety. So to comply with that they should lock off power and reinstate one complete. This is a problem with inspection and testing as can't use loop impedance tester, but not impossible.

If they don't have the expertise then they must use third party testers, the law allows them to charge on top of their fee for those testers.

In Wales fee is £100 plus vat, for first £2000 worth of work, in England there is no fixed fee. But add the EICR cost and it can be a few hundred pounds, specially if anything fails.

So theroy yes can take LABC route, practice likely cost more than scheme member route. And clearly since the LABC has responsibility for site safety they must be able to say no, however as long as power is off, can't see problem.
 
The OP's home may well have existing faults, that the existing CU will not "spot" - change to a unit with RCD's and they could be faced with a situation where the RCD's won't hold.

What don't you understand about this?
For what it's worth, the existing CU does already have a 30mA RCD
Your LABC should have a table of fees on their website
They do... but electrical work is mysteriously absent: https://www.gedling.gov.uk/media/ge...lanningbuildingcontrol/BC Fees April 2023.pdf
 

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