Mr Bates and the post office

[Brigadier]

Stripping her of her medal helps no-one and nothing, certainly not justice

Why jail a frail fraudster then? They're not of any physical threat to anyone.

Natural justice is that her actions can have both rewards, and consequences.
Loss of an honour would be an example of a consequence.

The people who wrote the software seem chiefly responsible

Disagree :the people who knew that there was serious doubt about the veracity of the accusations against the subpostmasters, yet actively connived and lied to secure these false convictions, should be held accountable.

The people who wrote the crappy product are guilty, at worst, of writing a crappy product.
It is the duty of the user to ensure that it is performing as specified, and to act accordingly.

 

[camerart]

Hi,
I wonder why nobody thought that it was a coincidence that so many usually honest people suddenly started defrauding.
C

 

[motorbiking]

Stripping Fred the shred of his knighthood helped nobody, but it was a permanent reminder that he was a disgraced CEO whose leadership destroyed a bank. Losing a CBE, would be the same. She got it for services to the PO and that probably is a slap in the face to all those who suffered.

For the IT people everything you need is in the judgement and technical appendix + the computer weekly articles. Lots and lots of reading.

Post Office Horizon scandal explained: Everything you need to know | Computer Weekly

Computer Weekly has investigated the Post Office Horizon scandal since 2008 and is, in fact, part of the story. This guide covers essential information about the scandal.

www.computerweekly.com

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/bates-v-post-office-judgment.pdf

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/bates-v-post-office-appendix-1-1.pdf

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/bates-v-post-office-appendix-2-1.pdf

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Agreed about the Computer Weekly articles - excellent pieces of journalism. Only pity is I can't read some of the articles because they are subscription only - and I haven't worked for anyone who subscribed for many years

 

[Odds]

The Post Office is suspected of wrongly prosecuting dozens more operators who took part in a pilot scheme of the faulty Horizon system, the Guardian has been told. Amid growing anger over the treatment of postmasters whose lives have been ruined in the scandal, Whitehall sources have confirmed that a precursor scheme was rolled out in 1995 and 1996 to hundreds of branches in north-east England.

Conservative MPs are expected to return to parliament this week demanding action. David Davis, the former cabinet minister, said the government is facing a “tidal wave” of public support for the victims in the wake of the ITV drama Mr Bates vs the Post Office.

The Grauniad.

And, of course, Rish! is suddenly anxious to 'do something' about this terrible injustice. After thirteen years of constant fretting from Tory governments. Maybe they'll get round to it after watching the programme. Or during an advert break. Take your time lads; you've got til October. Second thoughts, leave it to Labour. They've been campaigning for much longer on their behalf.

 

[motorbiking]

Horizon was on labours watch, one of the many massive IT failures that they liked to commission during the ERP boom years. Tories, just have to clear the mess up and you can't simply cancel all the convictions. This may take around 30-40,000 hours of court resources, just to reopen the cases and clear the wrongful convictions. It will probably cost the tax payer more than the whole system cost to start with.

 

[Brigadier]

you can't simply cancel all the convictions.

Why not?

 

[Odds]

It occured during Labour's time in government but the PO dodged and weaved til the truth came out after Labour were out of office. the Tories seem to think they can cancel the convictions but i'm sure they'll stop by to ask MBK first.

 

[motorbiking]

Some of them pleaded guilty - So no right of appeal
Each case has to be reviewed to show that the horizon evidence was unreliable.
There is a risk that some genuine fraudulent activity may jump on the band wagon (though personally, I think this will be small and I'd rather 2 guilty go free than 1 innocent gets jailed).
They will need to change the law if they want to mass cancel the convictions.

It was a Tory MP that got this on the Radar.

 

[Odds]

[David] Davis, the former cabinet minister, called for a series of measures to speed up justice for the post office operators. He called for the government to fast-track the quashing of convictions using the key fact that operators from Fujitsu had access to post office operator’s terminals, raising questions over the safety of every conviction.

“The fact that they could access each computer means that each conviction is unsafe,” he said. “These very expensive lawyers are protecting the shareholders but there’s only one shareholder and that is the government. So we could make a decision to pull back from challenging obvious compensation claims. “If the Post Office goes bankrupt, and it has to be refinanced by the government, so be it,” he told the Guardian.

 

[Brigadier]

Some of them pleaded guilty - So no right of appeal
Each case has to be reviewed to show that the horizon evidence was unreliable.
There is a risk that some genuine fraudulent activity may jump on the band wagon (though personally, I think this will be small and I'd rather 2 guilty go free than 1 innocent gets jailed).

1. reverse it then; perjury by the accusers was demonstrably ubiquitous throughout.
2. waste of (mine, and your) money: those lying tnucs already spunked millions of our money, crushing anyone who protested their innocence (£300K+, to crush Appleton(sic?), who was accused of stealing £35K. As one example).
3. Better a thousand guilty go free etc etc


Years ago, I posted a tale about institutional waste, and the hypocrisy of it (unreceipted expenses claims within HMRC, with the knowledge and even by the bosses signing off the claims).
Yet us taxpayers, and our employers, are not afforded the same leniency.

 

[motorbiking]

Nothing in that changes what I said. The government can change the law, but needs to be very careful that it doesn't do so in a way that means other cases are damaged. They could mass pardon them, but they need their convictions quashed not pardoned.

don't get me started on HMRC. If you described the process to aliens they'd think we are mad.

You have to tell them how much tax you owe, based on information they already have on you and if you make a mistake, they can fine you because they already have the information. its like walking in to a shop and asking "how much is this" and the shop keeper saying "you tell me, but if you get it wrong, I'll have you arrested for theft".

Though I did notice this year, they actually had info on my employers and how much I'd earned with each, so it made that bit easier

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Horizon was on labours watch, one of the many massive IT failures that they liked to commission during the ERP boom years. Tories, just have to clear the mess up and you can't simply cancel all the convictions. This may take around 30-40,000 hours of court resources, just to reopen the cases and clear the wrongful convictions. It will probably cost the tax payer more than the whole system cost to start with.

I think it's established that it's the mis management of the system that is the issue.

How long have the Tories been aware of it?

But let's blame Labour

 

[Brigadier]

Labour's

the PO

the Tories

the Tories

Labour

It might be a start if we can change the culture of apportioning responsibility from the above examples, to those who really are responsible (people).


Ford aren't blamed because some half-blind, half-drunk, or Insta addict crashes their car through a queue at a bus stop.


As long as people can misrepresent, lie, and even commit perjury to secure the results they want, all the while with the get-out-of-jail-free-card of "it was the PO!" to fall back on, nothing will change.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

It might be a start if we can change the culture of apportioning responsibility from the above examples, to those who really are responsible (people).


Ford aren't blamed because some half-blind, half-drunk, or Insta addict crashes their car through a queue at a bus stop.


As long as people can misrepresent, lie, and even commit perjury to secure the results they want, all the while with the get-out-of-jail-free-card of "it was the PO!" to fall back on, nothing will change.

Read what mb posted.

It's that that needs challenging