Mr Bates and the post office

Nobody is arguing it's not for them to clear up the mess. But it's very complex.

People did actually commit crimes out of desperation. People did actually plead guilty.

If the govt interfered with a judicial process - I'm sure you would be the first to cry.
 
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Nobody is arguing it's not for them to clear up the mess. But it's very complex.

People did actually commit crimes out of desperation. People did actually plead guilty.

If the govt interfered with a judicial process - I'm sure you would be the first to cry.
Yes.

Missing the point though.

Sunak is suddenly jumping onto the issue. A TV programme and an election looming.

He's had plenty of time, as have his predecessors to move things on. Suddenly it's top of the agenda

Oh and don't forget you were trying to pin it on Labour
 
There was clearly a time when PO staff may have felt that horizon was catching fraudsters that the paper system could hide (97-00). There was clearly a time when they may have justifiably thought Horizon bashing was just standard user moaning about a new IT system. However, the line is crossed when you instigate a cover up (00-09). Another line is crossed when you knowingly threaten to prosecute someone for a crime you have no evidence of in order to get them to accept a lessor charge (systemic). Another when you lie to court (00-15) and another when you take every possible step to keep a lid on the issue 08-20), despite evidence that people's lives are being ruined.

It was people that did this, not a government and not organisations. People can be cynical about Sunak's opportunism, but you can also see that awareness of the scale of the issue, didn't really come to light until the case in 2019.

People will have to account for why they crossed lines, they will have to show their orders and who ordered them to do it.
Utter drivel the people work within the system.

So now you argue that it was the failing of 'people' yet you never once lay blame at the 'people' who run this country.

What crack pipe are you smoking this early? Whatever it is - stay off it.
 
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Horizon was on labours watch, one of the many massive IT failures that they liked to commission during the ERP boom years. Tories, just have to clear the mess up


Like I said, recent examples from the thread.


People took decisions, not "Labour", "Tory", or "the PO".
 
Like I said, recent examples from the thread.


People took decisions, not "Labour", "Tory", or "the PO".
That was a MB quote I highlighted for you.

I blame the management, fully. Define the (final) management I guess
 
Your argument is pure sophistry.

How so?


You post on here as Odds and I, as Brigadier.

Those who use those IDs have (a degree of) "personal" responsibility for posts made under those IDs.
(Which is why misquoting someone, or falsifying quotes), is against Forum rules, iirc.


Swap "the PO" for "GD", and have us all post with identical user IDs of "GD".
All responsibility for content is shed by the poster, and assumed by GD.

Individuals can then post with absolute impunity, safe in the knowledge that "GD" bears any consequences for the content of all posts.
 
Yes.

Missing the point though.

Sunak is suddenly jumping onto the issue. A TV programme and an election looming.

He's had plenty of time, as have his predecessors to move things on. Suddenly it's top of the agenda

Oh and don't forget you were trying to pin it on Labour
No I was responding to Odds claim

And, of course, Rish! is suddenly anxious to 'do something' about this terrible injustice. After thirteen years of constant fretting from Tory governments. Maybe they'll get round to it after watching the programme. Or during an advert break. Take your time lads; you've got til October. Second thoughts, leave it to Labour. They've been campaigning for much longer on their behalf.

I didn't see you challenge Odds on the highlighted text. The fact is - it was a Torry MP that championed the cause.
 
what was the post office unions involvement in the caper

Afaik the sub post masters were part of some union ?? Representation ?

Why did they not offer assistance / help / to these people ?

What is this Fujitsu liability in the caper ?
 
The state owned post office basically used money
( tax payers) to bomb these post masters out of court and were prepared to spend millions in legal scheister fees to silence / threaten them ??
 
It is far more complicated than that - the system would have been designed by system analysts, possibly working from a brief generated by one or more business analysts. It was then written by computer programmers and then tested by a (separate) testing team. Specialist code, such as comms or security software (as in a distributed system such as this) is often the product of a separate development team, as commercial developers rarely do systems or comms software.

Once the application has been passed by the software house team it should be tested by a separate team at the client, who in larger systems also use computer auditors to validate the results generated by the system. Even after that you'd normally have a live test pilot run with (hopefully) a manual audit to confirm results.

At all stages bugs are noted and passed back to the development team to be corrected. But the decisions sbout what gets fixed is ultimately down to nanagement, not developers. So just who do you prosecute?

More of concern was a tiny clip supposedly set at Fujitsu in Bracknell, in their "operations centre", where an operator seems to have been telling someone that they could modify transactions to correct computer errors! In any secure system this should be simply impossible to do. If the comms is corrupting records then the software needs to be amended in such a way that this becomes either impossible or at worst exceptionally rare. The error log which was produced later in the program I watched would seemto imply that comms errors were occurring far too frequentently. IMHO that is where the real IT issue lies. Who permitted these operations centre staff to make such changes? What was done to ensure that these errors were trapped and corrected? So not quite a development or testing issue - more a management issue, surely?

As to a "foreign company", hardly. Fukitsu was originally called ICL (International Computers Ltd) and were very British. Their software is allegedly still developed here, but they hardly fill me with confidence given how much of a bunch of jobsworths they at one time were (and still are according to.one acquaintance who is in IT management). My missus worked for them for a while; I worked with them on several projects in the past - which tends to bias us both somewhat

.
Noted, but the bottom line is fuk it sue contracted to provide a system fit for purpose, not one whose software wrongly and it seems regularly identified shortfalls as the fault of the subbies
 
This post office scandal was reported in depth by a radio journalist a good while back via a number of episodes in a radio doc

He came across the scandal story by chance via a distraught taxi driver

Who’s wife had been jailed over the caper she had been a post mistress

He took up taxi driving so as to try and make ends meet
 
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