Plumbers. Bless them.

[SaladFingers]

If we spent less time slagging each other off ( well some posters) and more time explaining each others issues we would all be that much wiser.

I'll second that.

 

[SaladFingers]

I am not condoning or promoting any of this. Some one asked for an example of when it can happen & I offered on instance.
OK some boiler manus state that as the 'bonding' (if rerq) doesn't need to be done with bonding straps & cable as the boiler will do that for u. Nothing to do with how it works, what it does, or what its called. Just to tell u that u dont need to do it on that particular boiler.
Yes all boilers must be earthed but only those that need functional earths will show an obvious (visual) issue if they havnt got one.

Yes its supplementary bonding but it would help if they stopped changing the names of things. (equipotential & main etc)

Plumbers (understandably) did suffer from bonding mania. To level all the incoming earths & various supplies & the pipework it does make sense to do it in the one place most of the pipes are bound to be in close proximity (by the boiler) with main bonds from incoming gas & water & lekky.

To me R17 is the line in the sand for full domestic protection or not. As supplementary bonding is not needed in properties with all ccts protected by RCD's but anything earlier still is, to protect special locations etc.

The thing is RCDs play no part in protecting from differing potentials across metalwork. I believe if all fittings are metal and there's adequate conituity directly from boiler to pipework, then cross bonding is a waste of time anyway. Most boilers require earth from the controls supply, so the boiler is 'earthed' in anycase.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am not condoning or promoting any of this. Some one asked for an example of when it can happen & I offered on instance.

Fair enough.

OK some boiler manus state that as the 'bonding' (if rerq) doesn't need to be done with bonding straps & cable as the boiler will do that for u. Nothing to do with how it works, what it does, or what its called. Just to tell u that u dont need to do it on that particular boiler.

But it is never necessary when the boiler itself is not in a special location.
If it is necessary to bond the pipework of a special location it must be done in or near the special location.
The boiler may be too far away for bonding there to be effective in the special location.

it does make sense to do it in the one place most of the pipes are bound to be in close proximity (by the boiler) with main bonds from incoming gas & water & lekky.

See above answer.

To me R17 is the line in the sand for full domestic protection or not.

I still don't know what R17 is. Is there a link to it?

 

[EFLImpudence]

The thing is RCDs play no part in protecting from differing potentials across metalwork.

No, but the supplementary bonding is for protection under fault conditions when the RCD will disconnect the supply.

I believe if all fittings are metal and there's adequate conituity directly from boiler to pipework, then cross bonding is a waste of time anyway.

As I said above, plumbers only demand (cross) bonding of the pipes and not to the boiler so it does not bond the boiler to the pipes.

Unless the boiler is actually in a special location this (cross) bonding is never required for electrical reasons.

Most boilers require earth from the controls supply, so the boiler is 'earthed' in anycase.

All boilers, surely.

 

[SaladFingers]

The thing is RCDs play no part in protecting from differing potentials across metalwork.

No, but the supplementary bonding is for protection under fault conditions when the RCD will disconnect the supply.

No, it's not. Supplimentary cross bonding is to ensure all metalwork is at the same potential.

What fault would rely on pipework?

Electrical equipment will be earthed in its own right, not protected by someone elses pipework and supplimentary bonding.

 

[ecowarrior]

R17 is my own 'name' for Reg 17 on . If I am correct R16 was ( in simple terms) Ring mains only had protection (by RCD) (Eebads or similar - I cant remember) and Reg 17 on ( the red book) is ADS with every ( well nearly) circuit protected by RCD. Hence the less need for supp bonding in bathrooms etc. (when the first chap asked what it meant - I thought he was joking - and another poster surmised it was a water reg - I thought he was joking as well!) sorry for any confusion.

For non electrically minded plumbs - good practice was to cross bond under the boiler. In the kitchen this often went a bit OTT with anything metal being attached to each other as well as the pipes.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

For non electrically minded plumbs - good practice was to cross bond under the boiler.

Which meant people were doing things without understanding why.

Full scope/limited scope/no scope - not of those terms matter a toss - if you don't understand something you should not fiddle with it, and taking money from customers to do things you don't understand is completely unacceptable - it makes you a charlatan, a cowboy, a cheat.

In the kitchen this often went a bit OTT with anything metal being attached to each other as well as the pipes.

That can easily make things more dangerous not less.

What does it take to get some people to realise that they are incompetent and must not do electrical work?

 

[EFLImpudence]

and another poster surmised it was a water reg -

That was me - that was the only relevant thing that came up on Google.

Thanks.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The thing is RCDs play no part in protecting from differing potentials across metalwork.

No, but the supplementary bonding is for protection under fault conditions when the RCD will disconnect the supply.

No, it's not. Supplimentary cross bonding is to ensure all metalwork is at the same potential.

Yes, under fault conditions.

What fault would rely on pipework?

Ummm. Not sure what you mean by 'rely' but - one which is trying to get to earth?

Electrical equipment will be earthed in its own right, not protected by someone elses pipework and supplimentary bonding.

But if someone else's pipework is connected to it, what will happen to that pipework when a fault occurs?

 

[ecowarrior]

What does it take to get some people to realise that they are incompetent and must not do electrical work?

Presumably the same thing that makes bricky's think they are builders and builders think they can move flues & play with gas.
Plumbing installers suffer from finding sparkies who understand heating systems to b honest. I am sure you are competent & experienced and I treat u with the respect that deserves, but there are as many 6 week wonder sparkies as there are plumbers?
Like my self I am sure there have been times when you too have been a tads incompetent?
Now this thread has veered away from a slanging match it has been quite educational. Best of all i have found a supplier of multicore I never new existed .

 

[SaladFingers]

The thing is RCDs play no part in protecting from differing potentials across metalwork.

No, but the supplementary bonding is for protection under fault conditions when the RCD will disconnect the supply.

No, it's not. Supplimentary cross bonding is to ensure all metalwork is at the same potential.

Yes, under fault conditions.

No, not under fault conditions - pipework has no electrical fault condition. You don't understand metalwork and varying potentials.

What fault would rely on pipework?

Ummm. Not sure what you mean by 'rely' but - one which is trying to get to earth?

See my point above

Electrical equipment will be earthed in its own right, not protected by someone elses pipework and supplimentary bonding.

But if someone else's pipework is connected to it, what will happen to that pipework when a fault occurs?

It has nothing to do with someone elses pipework and a fault. An electrical fault has nothing to do with pipes. Electrical equipment is earthed in its own right, not some other equipment by proxy.

That's not what supplimentary bonding is for and never has been. Earthing, bonding and supplimentary bonding has been widely misunderstood for decades.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Earthing, bonding and supplimentary bonding has been widely misunderstood for decades.

So why have you decided to continue that tradition?

 

[SaladFingers]

Earthing, bonding and supplimentary bonding has been widely misunderstood for decades.

So why have you decided to continue that tradition?

I haven't

 

[333rocky333]

R17 is my own 'name' for Reg 17 on .

Confused me too
We tend to call it
16th edition
17th edition
Sure we all understand now

 

[ecowarrior]

As there have been some sensible posters on here - I thought I might go a bit OT having just read on your forum the Part P thread?

From our ( heating) side of things the Part P must be the biggest farce of all? Quals are dished out in a day or so, equipment (£5/700) purchased for testing etc - then NOBODY ever asks if u r Part P approved nobody checks anything and no body gives a toss if u report any think even life threatening? Certainly a gas inspector will not look or care.
I am with NIC and all they want to do is sell Van insurance & more worthless courses ( they now do plumbing and various HVAC courses including Gas)
How do they justify an annual £375 with competition when Gas Safe charge £175 for the same service with no competition?

Having installed a boiler the (electrical) installation stops at the FSO. The lead to the boiler is no different than the lead on your TV and part of the appliance. From the wiring centre (within the boiler) comes a 4 ( now 5!) core cable to the WiFi room stat. Would u interparate that needs testing?

How about a combi with an added S plan (for extra Hot Water Cyl) . The supply for the 10 way box comes from the FSO (the end of the electrical installation) . It only controls the cyl in the airing cupboard next to the FSO with a 230v cyl stat and zone valve? are they 'appliances' or an addition to the electrical instalation therefore requiring minor works chitty etc? what are your opinions on that?( I am NOT after a fight but would appreciate your opinions)