Putin, arse, elbow

[Justin Passing]

The cluster bombs are anti-personal devices, specifically designed to kill and/or maim the people defending a location while leaving the infra-structure intact for the invaders to take over. Damaging the station and/or the railway equipment would hinder the movement of Russian war materials if the Russians were able to take over the town. It is very likely that the Russians believe that killing civilians might induce survivors to pressure the Ukraine government to surrender,

Some cluster bombs are specifically anti-personnel. It boils down to the size and type of explosives. It sounds important to find out exactly what this was. I expect it'll come out. Article here has some analysis (from Arkansas(!))
https://www.archyde.com/cluster-bom...station-invasion-war-crime-weapon-equivalent/
“We do not have an answer as to whether there were cluster munitions in the strike as we are still analyzing the missile strikes against the railroad,” the official said.

Would the Ukranians have had the type with very small, practically anti-flesh variety? Dunno.


All possibilities are pretty open atm. A long and murky history:
https://www.popsci.com/technology/cluster-bombs-ukraine-russia/

 

[JohnD]

Some cluster bombs are specifically anti-personnel.

Is there a variety that specifically aren't?

 

[Justin Passing]

Is there a variety that specifically aren't?

Sure, incendiary, or small oriented armour piercing grenade type things, etc (the ones with a rag at the back) or human-slicing flechettes, and more. You can cover "a football field sized area with small explosives". There appears to be a wide range of sub-types of carrier, some more accurate than others. If you're covering a football field sized area, I imagine it depends whether it's a fuel dump, something industrial, a load of vehicles, or whatever. If you probe the net you can find all variants of possible orrible things, none of which would be resisted by a soft pink body.

They should have evidence of specific type from the damage done to eg pavement surfaces. Anti-P flechettes would leave a spray of marks.

SOme pics here: The 9N123 is one I saw quoted as being in this missile
https://armamentresearch.com/9n123k-cluster-munition-and-9n24-submunitions-in-syria/

Russia used them here:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/02/25/ukraine-russian-cluster-munition-hits-hospital

both sides stockpile them...
http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/reports/2021/russian-federation/cluster-munition-ban-policy.aspx (very slow link)

Assuming for a moment Russia's intention was to clear and frighten civilians while leaving infrastructure intact, it looks to be an unwise move. Ukraine can blow the place up if they want to at some later point when it would be advantageous, and Russia has earned itself a sh1tstorm of backlash in the mean time. Sadly for 50 or 250 civilian casualties, nobody's keeping a tally.

 

[ajohn]

As I mentioned a Ukrainian showed a reporter a chunk of shrapnel ~60mm squarish. If ball bearings etc I am sure those would have been shown. Cluster bombs are not banned by all countries. I've no idea which countries have or haven't. Some describe them as loads of hand grenades all at once. They could conceivably be used for other reasons. Depends on what is there when they hit. Pass.

White phosphorus certainly isn't banned.

A conflicting report of sorts. Russians moved lots into a school to use as a human shield. Frome people who were there- they moved us into the basement of a school and kept us there for 2 weeks until the fighting stopped.

 

[Justin Passing]

As I mentioned a Ukrainian showed a reporter a chunk of shrapnel ~60mm squarish. If ball bearings etc I am sure those would have been shown. Cluster bombs are not banned by all countries. I've no idea which countries have or haven't. Some describe them as loads of hand grenades all at once. They could conceivably be used for other reasons. Depends on what is there when they hit. Pass.

White phosphorus certainly isn't banned.

A conflicting report of sorts. Russians moved lots into a school to use as a human shield. Frome people who were there- they moved us into the basement of a school and kept us there for 2 weeks until the fighting stopped.

They don't use ball bearings. Weapons designers have more ingenuity than that.
A piece of 60mm shrapnel tells us what, that the missile was bigger than 60mm?
Yes some are hand grenade sized, some bigger some smaller.

I don't think there are many surprises in the reports of inhumanty coming out about Russian behaviour now. A few might be dubious, but I think we've all heard enough.

----

A friend of a friend has Baltic ancestry. A distant relative of hers has left Leningrad for good now; she came here via Turkey. She's something in ballet choreography now.
"Do the Russian people know what's going on?", she's been asked. Oh yes, they know enough. She won't be going back.

 

[ajohn]

Russia used them here

Going on other items Russia has had deciding what was behind a guidance nose can be tricky. Unlike many countrie's chemical weapons theirs were very easy to destroy. A missile for instance could carry a number of things so the deadly bits were separate. Seems this even included shells.

The odd thing about this particular missile is that it seems it's a very early one. There has been updates. Sinister factor or not pass. It seems one did hit Donbas too. I doubt if it's an ideal type to take out a railway station but the correct part for that would probably kill a lot more people. I'm think of the things that turned freedom square into rubble. Or the numerous ones used to destroy a military base in the east. Latest report is 30 of them but that seems to have increased a lot from earlier reports.

I tried to find out what military satellites are up their. All classified. There are observation style aircraft buzzing around in NATO airspace and fighters. The military may know where is came from and have far better idea of what it actually was. When a conventional bomb explodes I would have though plenty of shrapnel would be produced.

 

[ajohn]

They don't use ball bearings. Weapons designers have more ingenuity than that.

I just mentioned the the type a reporter showed - more or less ball bearings along with the dents they produced on some items.

 

[Justin Passing]

WHile we're on bombs - this is a GRAD assault on Kharkiv https://twitter.com/i/status/1498272000946708486
Obviously a surgical attack on a military asset...

 

[Justin Passing]

I don't remember seeing this before: cluster bomb attack in Mykolaev station, Indian reporter

----------------------
Ukraine using flechettes, 2014:
https://news.yahoo.com/surgeons-ukraines-rebel-donetsk-confirm-cluster-bomb-usage-205747600.html

 

[ajohn]

A piece of 60mm shrapnel tells us what, that the missile was bigger than 60mm?

I don't know what happens to bomb shells when they explode. I'd suspect some containment is best. The casing could be made much like a grenade. Square doesn't really describe it well. Add ish and somewhat ragged.

So far I haven't seen the impact. If it's damaged something critical we wont and Ukrainians are instructed to not talk about them. It seems from a reporters comments it is an interchange station. C4's Alex who I am not a fan of mentioned when they ask where to stay they are told near a station as the Russians aren't hitting them. He tends to be a one sided sensational type reporter though what ever it's on.

Odd pictures - windows fine with wrecked cars adjacent. I wonder if the impact was away from the actual station. A video but the image shows what I mean
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/kramatorsk-train-station-ukraine-russia-rockets
The station is usually shown jam packed inside and out. Some might see that as supporting Russia. I'm not. The war is on. People get killed but there are other implications such as when and if it stops. One other factor bugs me as well. Not often mentioned. In some ways it's to the west's advantage. Do I fully trust them - no I don't.

 

[ajohn]

Boris is in Kyev. Maybe been and gone really. Glowing reports from both sides. It seems Zelensky as I do thinks that war in the east will be more conventional rather than hit and run etc. Hence tanks etc wanted. I'm not so sure from footage at Ukraine's boarder there or AlJ footage from the other side. They were allowed in. It looked like at least some more mayhem to me. One interview was with a soldier outside some one's shop. The captured Donbas area has already had a wave of troops pass through fighting so maybe most will move out.

According to Rand.org Ukraine has experience of fighting there. For 2 short periods Russian troops got truly involved and quickly drove them back. Rand.org are analysts, land of the free and home of the brave maybe but if too much that way there would be no point in them commenting.

 

[IT Minion]

White phosphorus certainly isn't banned.

It is by some countries. We not only don't use it for anti personel use but aren't even supposed to operate in a theatre where it is used as an anti personel weapon by allies.

We do use it for smoke, it's far more effective than other types of smoke devices.

Also some military kit does use ball bearings. Claymores being the most obvious example, and the Russians have some very big equivalents.

Cluster munitions are frowned upon for many reasons, one being there's often a high rate of dud munitions and so they have a nasty trend to be picked up by children days or weeks later and then go off.

 

[Notch7]

every one is entitled to there opinion it’s called democracy / freedom of speech this is the UK not Russia

Vinty is not Putins buddy

If Vinty doesnt want to be called Putins buddy, he should directly admit Russia is committing massive war crimes -instead of endless deflections

and bear in mind he is posting from a place where at one time there was armed conflict
Assassinations
Intimidation
Murder
Bombings
Armed troops on the street

even more reason to call out war crimes and disinformation

 

[Notch7]

A friend of a friend has Baltic ancestry. A distant relative of hers has left Leningrad for good now; she came here via Turkey. She's something in ballet choreography now.
"Do the Russian people know what's going on?", she's been asked. Oh yes, they know enough. She won't be going back.

these anecdotal snippets are useful info

 

[ajohn]

It is by some countries.

There were shots of it being used in Iraq on the beeb. The word bomb used. Also reports from a young Ukrainian fighting in it. There are far more effective ways of burning people. The famed lines of fire produced by a certain type of bomb for instance. Often seen in movies.