smart meter different enegy supplier

[Driver123]

Oh well. Its now seems to be working. I was sure it stopped working when I swapped to eon and that they told me over the phone that I would need them to fit an eon one. I also plugged it in a couple of days ago and after several hours it was reading zero. Now five minutes after plugging it in its started giving me a reading. The only thing its not giving me is cost but I can work that out. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

 

[Driver123]

This thread might help: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3802609

Yes that was interesting thanks.

 

[ericmark]

The unit I have from Scottish Power came as about 8 bits, power supplies, current transformer, monitor, remote controlled plugs, and a thing which had to be connected to the wifi to send info to Scottish Power. From what I remember when with Scottish Power they worked out my bills from the info sent correcting them once a year. However once we swapped the display still worked but the wifi connection was no longer used and all the little remote units no longer work. It was very like a smart meter when I was with Scottish Power and I could go onto their website and view my power usage. However it was not a full blown smart meter they have many more functions the main one is they detect the direction power is going so you get paid for what energy solar panels actually make. Until the smart meter is installed they use a agreed figure it would seem when installed peoples return for the investment often falls, so many dread the smart meter.

If you have no micro generation then the unit I was given does nearly the same as a smart meter, however there is a battery in the CT on the incoming cables which will need changing from time to time, I note my meter is no longer working I need to change the battery. Since it relies on a battery it is only used to reduce the meter readers visits it does not replace his visits. Not sure who would normally change the battery if still used to send info to Scottish Power, but now I have to do it myself.

 

[ericmark]

It seems there is a delay with smart meters [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35835561]this gives some insight

A central communications system for smart meters is due to be up and running in October 2016 after which time energy companies say mass roll out will be more straightforward.

It seems that is the major problem at the moment. It also states

A report from the Institute of Directors last year warned the UK government's smart meter scheme

[/URL]

[URL='http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-32090577']was too ambitious and risked becoming an "IT disaster".[/url]

Those with solar panels must be rubbing their hands with glee.

 

[lloyda]

Those with solar panels must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Assuming that they consume more than 50% of the power they generate - which I don't.

 

[SimonH2]

AIUI, the smart meters being rolled out now are to a standard and so will work with any supplier. However, until fairly recently some suppliers were fitting their own smart meters which weren't to a single agreed standard - and basically only work with that supplier's infrastructure. If you have one of these then after switching supplier it will still work as a meter, but the "smart"* bits won't do anything useful**.

* IMO there's nothing "smart" about them, just a multi-register meter with communications and a remote switch off facility.

** Useful as in actually achieving anything that the government claims they will - like savings. Their purpose is simply to control demand by a crude mechanism of pricing users out to try and hide the complete flippin mess the UK generation system is already in.

 

[EFLImpudence]

They are not compulsory. You may refuse.

 

[ericmark]

Now I may be wrong but I was lead to understand the smart bit is being able to detect direction of current flow. Stick an ammeter on a supply and you may very well know 15A is flowing but to measure the direction you need to measure volts. Reasonably easy two volt meter one either side of a known resistor will tell you both current and direction.

Having a data logger built in and a remote control may also help but main thing is direction of flow so with micro generation you can charge the correct amount.

 

[SimonH2]

They are not compulsory. You may refuse.

For now, but for how long ? I can see two long term results ...
Either it's seen as the complete balls up that it is, or it'll become optional in theory - but the only tariffs available for non-smart meter installs will be "unaffordable". I'll certainly be using "firm responses" to anyone suggesting I should have one.

Now I may be wrong but I was lead to understand the smart bit is being able to detect direction of current flow.

It's nowt to do with that, current meters do that, even the older Ferraris disk meters can do it (AIUI they have mechanisms to prevent reverse-rotation). The smart bit is in two bits :

Firstly they are multi-register - in principle they can meter up to 48 different rates in one day (a different price for every half hour !). Plus they can other tricks like "the first x units at y rate, then the rest at z rate".

The second, and main feature, is the remote controllability. Primarily this is about remotely setting the mode (credit or pre-pay) and charging rates, plus the ability to apply short term over-rides. In extreme, they also allow remote supply disconnection - and of course we all expect that there will be no administrative errors when disconnecting supplies

Coupled to this is the ability for them to communicate to in-premises devices. The idea is that instead of running the washing machine and tumble drier when we're about, we'll program them to only run when the lecky is cheap (because demand is low and the wind is blowing when it's not needed). Of course, running the washing machine and tumble drier at night has no issues - we love having the upstairs neighbour running their spin cycle at 2 in the morning when we're trying to sleep, and such appliances are known to be so very reliable and not prone to fires
But a lot of it is predicated on people watching the display and working out that it's going to be expensive to cook the evening meal at the normal time (because we've got insufficient supply when the wind isn't blowing) - so we'll wait for a few hours before eating.

Claims of people saving energy are just greenwash to try and make them sound useful - people who understand such things have found that initially people cut demand, but within a week or two their lecky usage is back to normal and the display is thrown in a drawer.

Smart meters are really an admission that they've given up on trying to provide supplies to match demand, and now are managing demand to match supply - thanks to all the money we're p***ing up the wall on windmill subsidies.

 

[ericmark]

So for the user they do nothing that a simple current transformer clipped on cable could not do. I don't have a smart meter and I can still read how much power I am using at any time of the day or night nothing smart about that.

Like the water meters, they can save you money, until the new type loo goes wrong. With the old loo when it went wrong you could see the water pouring out of the side of the house and you soon fixed it, new loo it goes down the bowl and you have no alert to say there is a fault. First you know is a huge bill. Found the new loo leaking at my mothers not a clue how long she does not go upstairs only visitors use it so could have been going on for months. Some one tried to say they use less water!

 

[PBC_1966]

They are not compulsory. You may refuse.

For now, but for how long ? I can see two long term results ...
Either it's seen as the complete balls up that it is, or it'll become optional in theory - but the only tariffs available for non-smart meter installs will be "unaffordable". I'll certainly be using "firm responses" to anyone suggesting I should have one.

One of the biggest suppliers here in California is PG&E, which has been rolling out the "Smart Meter" across the state in the last few years. But the California Public Utilities Commission made a ruling stipulating that they must provide an opt out, and limiting the charges which may be made. If you opt for a traditional meter, PG&E charges a one-time $75 set-up fee and an additional $10 per month for the first 3 years, after which there are no additional charges.

Here in Redding, the city operates its own electric utility and has decided not to adopt the "Smart Meter" at all, so we're avoiding all that nonsense at the moment. We still have a simple electromechanical Westinghouse meter on our house:

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Their purpose is simply to control demand by a crude mechanism of pricing users out to try and hide the complete flippin mess the UK generation system is already in.

Not quite.

That is one mechanism.

The other will be much more granular rolling cuts - they will be able to target individual houses.

 

[SimonH2]

So for the user they do nothing that a simple current transformer clipped on cable could not do. I don't have a smart meter and I can still read how much power I am using at any time of the day or night nothing smart about that.

That's about it - but you really need a "proper" power meter that also has voltage and phase (they do exist in clip-on designs) so that they can read true power etc.

The other will be much more granular rolling cuts - they will be able to target individual houses.

Indeed, if the pricing mechanism doesn't work.

They still claim "the lights won't go out" - even though NETA shows forecast negative surplus capacity at the end of this year, let along in 2019 (which I vaguely recall being a date bandied about). I do note that it's improved since I wrote to my MP asking about it and asking him to ask the relevant minister what they are doing about it. Got no answer of course - but on 11th Feb when I wrote, we had :
Checking tonight, I see that the forecast deficit has grown both in time and scale - at the moment I see 14 weeks of deficit, with 5 of those weeks showing a deficit of 3GW or more.
I can only conclude that someone is being paid to keep their old coal plant available, since the situation has improved to only 6 weeks showing a deficit, and the largest deficit is now 1.1GW - which is still 2% of forecast demand.
Beyond that, I think some "creative wording" is being used. They may be correct that the lights won't go out - but I bet there'll be some interruptible supply arrangements being called upon which is in reality the same thing, but can be described differently.

Incidentally, looking at NETA today http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm I see two things of note.
Wind generation has been down below 150MW (again) from just under 9GW of metered capacity and is doing just 1.3% of demand.
At 14:30 on the 28th, it reports that the wholesale price went down to -£34.75 (yes that minus sign really is there !) £/MWh

 

[ericmark]

I will admit I have looked at the power stations I have worked on Longannet likely the largest 2,400 MW now closed, Sizewell 'B' had two 750 MW generators and Connah's Quay four 650 MW generators the largest wind turbine is 8 MW most are only 1.5 MW so even if the wind does not stop blowing still need 1,200 wind generators just to replace Longannet.

Electric mountain is impressive built to allow for the slow response of the old nuclear power station we would need many more to compensate for the failings of the wind turbine.

Morecambe bay is the big question. To use tide power you need at least two large generators far enough apart so when one is on slack tide the other is running full bore. The Seven seems idea, but the only place where the tide is enough apart is Morecambe bay. However the proposed road link does not run where you would need the barrier to generate with. Also there is the bird life to consider. The Rance Tidal Power Station was rather a flop at least in the early years as it was found generating in both directions caused the effluent to build up and the whole place stank. So they had to limit it to generating in a single direction to get enough flow to remove the muck. It was considered at the time that likely the eco system would adapt not been to any lectures to ask if this did happen.

In real terms wind farms are a political move to generate work, it was never to generate power, just to generate work.

 

[SimonH2]

I suspect the wind farms were more about (from the politicos POV) being seen to be doing something* and (from the industry POV) to create a money trough to scoff from. One at the customers we have at work is a wind power outfit, more than one of us has to be really careful what we say when dealing with them since (being engineers) we could easily speak the inconvenient truth to them. Mind you, given that they are a bit of a PITA (especially the boss) we wouldn't miss them as a company.
It's been especially hard the last few weeks as they are replacing an old windfarm with even bigger monstrosities - the new ones really are 'kin huge and are far more conspicuous than the older (1980s era IIRC) ones.

* When averaged, they do produce a significant amount of lecky, that cannot be disputed. Just a pita that it's often not when it's wanted, or is too much when it's not wanted, or is rapidly varying in amount. And all the cost of dealing with the effects of that fall onto the rest of the industry as a hidden subsidy to wind over and above the ROCs they openly get. And the wind apologists have the cheek to complain about subsidies (or price guarantees as in the case of proposed new build nuclear)