Smart Meters 'forced' on people?

[Echo the husky]

Not a single person has been able to say something which I see as an actual true negative about smart meters.

Did you read your smart meter terms and conditions or did you just automatically agree to them when you were asked if you wanted a smart meter?

 

[lostinthelight]

Interesting. Other than on their website, I've heard nothing about smart meters from E.ON - and, as I have illustrated, even their website is doing anything but begging.

Eon have contacted multiple times by email and texts which I ignored...then they phoned so I said I didnt want one.
All went quiet for a few weeks, then an Eon chap arrived saying they were promoting smart meters.
After short discusion he said He would record my unwillingness to have one, two weeks later a meter reader came out despite me having submitted an online reading a week previous ...my monthly payments are just over £20.
litl

 

[Iamchamps]

Did you read your smart meter terms and conditions or did you just automatically agree to them when you were asked if you wanted a smart meter?

I was not asked if I wanted a smart meter I contacted my energy company and told them they need to fit one or I would be moving to a company that will. Prior to this I had read all documentation including t&cs regarding the smart meter. I could not be happier with it which is why when I read posts with people calling me an idiot and saying things like you will be hacked you will have the government turning off your supply it really makes me laugh. No one in all the smart meter posts have been able to post a shred of evidence of anything like this ever happening or even possibly happening. All conspiracy and I make the assumption it is the older generation. When I read things like I will paint nickel paint to block the signal only someone over a certain age would write that.

I still hear from older friends and family who say I refuse to have WiFi in my house because everyone outside can see what I am doing it is the same sort of principal. They have heard something that has scared them meaning they don’t want to embrace something which will make life better and easier.

I will not call anyone an idiot for what they choose to do in their life it is entirely up to you but stop trying to push lies and conspiracy on me and insulting me when I say I think smart meters are excellent when you have nothing to backup your claims off what you think is a negative.

 

[SimonH2]

But if I can why not? If I can have a smart meter that shows me an accurate reading of everything why not?

I didn't say you can't or shouldn't - just be aware of the downsides.

Not a single person has been able to say something which I see as an actual true negative about smart meters.

I have heard you may get hacked, the government may turn it off, I can have my electric usage monitored by 3rd parties, your house may blow up due to poor fitting, etc etc
...
Instead of being so scared of the future all the old folk who do not like change you should try and embrace it you might actually be surprised. Stop reading scaremonging conspiracy theorists stories made up by bored people sitting in basements with nothing better to do.

May get hacked - well yes. Think about it, something in the order of 30 million devices out there, many of them with zero physical security. I'm not bothered that someone might target me personally since hacking the system AND knowing which meter is mine is a whole new game, but hacking the system generally - yes that's a real consideration with very real consequences.

Government may turn me off - not exactly. My supplier may turn me off, or through mistakes another supplier may turn me off by mistake. Now we all know that energy suppliers never make billing errors and at present there's a bunch of hoops they have to go through before they can cut someone off (though actually they just fit a pre-payment meter). Now suppose all it takes is a click of a mouse - no I'm not convinced that all the checks and balances would get followed all the time.
And then we come to the real reason for smart meters - the PRIMARY function is electricity rationing, they just don't call it that. Remember the 70s and the rolling blackouts ? Well smart meters allow them to do that in a much finer grained manner WHEN we find that we don't have enough generation capacity on thos dark, cold, December nights in the middle of a widespread high pressure zone (c.f. December 2010).

Data collection. Yes, what they collect is way way more than is needed for the functions provided. Of course, we are assured that the massive database will be completely secure - and we all trust the government on database security don't we The fact is that this will be a really massive database with many third parties having access to it. And given the nature of it's contents, it would be of great interest to the (for example) less reputable parts of the advertising industry.

These are not conspiracy theories - they are facts of life. My day job is IT, and as part of that I have a reasonable understanding of the communications and IT side of things. Security in this sort of widely distributed system is a real nightmare - they may have had GCHQ involved on the security side*, but I still "have my doubts".

* Note that GCHQ found that the meters currently being installed are not secure, and neither were the next generation as they were at the time - they needed to "beef up" security. So basically they are busy installing insecure meters at the moment, and would have carried on doing so had GCHQ not pointed out the weaknesses.

And finally, if you have a "smart" meter today, if/when you change supplier it will stop working as a "smart" meter. All the "smart" meters installed to date will have top be replaced or upgraded before they will work with the big system - and that pretty well blows the financial case for them out of the water. It is said that some of them may be upgradable by replacing the comms module or installing new firmware - we shall see.

No one in all the smart meter posts have been able to post a shred of evidence of anything like this ever happening or even possibly happening. All conspiracy and I make the assumption it is the older generation.

It's hard to post evidence of something happening before it's happened All we can do is extrapolate from what's gone on in the past and apply logic.
For example ... Presumably you believe the lies your bank tells you that "chip and pin" is 100% secure do you ? The banks want you to believe that so they can make it someone else's problem (SEP) when problems do occur - and chip and pin has been demonstrated to have several security weaknesses the banks will NOT tell you about. The same with contactless.
For example ... The government keeps claiming that tags (used to allow offenders out early and apply a curfew etc) are secure and reliable. There have been prosecutions collapse when the system has been shown to be fatally flawed.
Don't take my word for it, check out some of the posts at https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org

When I read things like I will paint nickel paint to block the signal only someone over a certain age would write that.

Really ? It's a fairly modern manufacturing technique - and more prevalent now than it used to be with the demise of metal cases on equipment.

I still hear from older friends and family who say I refuse to have WiFi in my house because everyone outside can see what I am doing it is the same sort of principal. They have heard something that has scared them meaning they don’t want to embrace something which will make life better and easier.

That may be based on ignorance, that doesn't make everyone questioning "something new" wrong to do so. The things we are raising are not based on "we heard that ..." - these are verifiable facts (for example, the spec for the meters REQUIRES the remote turn off facility). It's a known fact that security is very difficult in large systems with lots of remote, insecure, elements - and it's a known fact that our government seems to have a problem with large IT projects.

However, it seems that many suppliers are trying very hard to persuade people to have 'smart' meters as soon as possible, and I'm not sure I fully understand that, unless it's just a matter of 'meeting targets'.

It is targets - all the big suppliers have a target to meet and they face large fines if they fail to meet them - it's imposed by an EU directive. At the moment it seems like recording "customer says no" counts towards the target which explains why they are accepting that as an answer. Whether that will change remains to be seen.

 

[Iamchamps]

Your reply has just strengthened everything I have previously said.

You have been blinded by what could’s.

I have already done this topic to death in many posts on here. I will finish with these words, I am happy to chat to anyone who does not insult me for having an opinion. If you insult me personally the conversation between us will be over (you will be on the ignore list so I will no longer see what you write)

Smart meters in my opinion the positive far out weigh any negatives so I will promote them to anyone who asks me about them. They have made my life a tiny bit easier and a lot of little easiers make one big easy. Which in today’s world is not a bad thing.

 

[mwatsonxx]

Fact - UK energy suppliers have no interest in saving money for consumers, never have done and never will.
Fact - UK available power is close to capacity.
Fact - UK power requirements will dramatically increase with the uptake of electric cars.
Fact - New power stations are required but not being built. I've discounted the chinese one because it will probably never work or will blow up.
Fact - Power from the wind relies on the wind, no wind no power. Noitce how still the air is in the UK on a really cold day.
Fact - The end result, the UK needs a method of controlling demand. Hence smartmeters that can use punitive tarrifs to stifle demand and increase power supplier profits.

My own personal concern is accidental switching OFF, how long do you think it would take get the blockheads to accept their mistake and turn it back ON.

Another Fact - About 12 years ago I was a BG customer, one day I got a bill for over £3500 (usual bill was £300ish pa) and a letter asking me to increase my direct debit to £300+ pm. I rang up to complain and was stonewalled, they suggested I might have built a heated swimming pool, and was warned if I didn't pay they would cut me off. It transpired over the next few days that I was one of 1000's of customers that had received these crazy bills. The attitude of BG only changed after the chairman was dragged to parliament to explain this nonsense. The MP's made him admit they had messed up and he promised to stop threatening people. This whole process had taken over 12 months. It was quite incredible the mans only reaction before had been to question how these people had time to make all the complaining phone calls, as it was costing BG a fortune hiring temporary staff to answer the phones.

I'm sure that attitude has not changed and given the same circumstance they would switch off the smart meter. And remember, as I mentioned above, my power would have been OFF for over 12 months.

 

[SimonH2]

Your reply has just strengthened everything I have previously said.

You have been blinded by what could’s.

No, I have not been blinded by "could's".
Similar projects have had "significant problems", government held information has been leaked, as mwatsonxx points out energy suppliers have f***ed up their billing. Those are all demonstrable facts - so it is not "being blinded by could's" to suggest that the same problems can (and IMO are likely) happen again in the future.
I can (mostly) avoid being affected by such problems by not having a smart meter. If I have a smart meter and one of these problems should happen then I'd not be able to do anything about it. So for me, the risks far far outweigh any benefits.

Smart meters in my opinion the positive far out weigh any negatives so I will promote them to anyone who asks me about them. They have made my life a tiny bit easier ...

That's fine - you have different priorities. However you appear to be doing what you criticise others for - by suggesting that those of us against these horrid and very expensive things have been blinded by irrational fears rather than just having a different view of the risks and benefits.

And remember that other than the remote switch off, every benefit of smart metering could have been done without the massive usage database (they don't need 1/2 hour readings, they only need one reading/month/register). There's a common tenet of security - if you don't need to store information, then not storing it means it can't be compromised.
And the ability to provide readings without an expedition to the back of the meter cupboard could have been done without even any widescale network - it would have been possible to provide them via the remote display, so that blows away another of the advertised "features".

 

[JohnW2]

Eon have contacted multiple times by email and texts which I ignored...then they phoned so I said I didnt want one. All went quiet for a few weeks, then an Eon chap arrived saying they were promoting smart meters.

Well, as you will realise, that is very different from my experience with E.ON. I get e-mail and snail mail from them, but none so far has been promoting smart meters, and I have certainly received no promotional phone calls from them.

Even when I go to my account on their website, it takes a bit of effort to find any information about smart meters and, as I have said, even that merely says that I might be eligible to request one if I wanted.

If they had been keen on 'pushing' them, they surely would have take the opportunity to at least ask me (if not 'push' me) when they 'routinely replaced my meter last year (with a non-smart one) - but there was absolutely no mention of the possibility of a smart meter.

It seems odd that one company is treating different customers so differently.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Echo the husky]

It's the variable tariff adjusted around the customers usage that is one concern for me. The terms from my supplier said you agree to he price per unit being changed without warning at different times of the day depending on usage.

 

[JohnW2]

But if I can why not? If I can have a smart meter that shows me an accurate reading of everything why not? .... Not a single person has been able to say something which I see as an actual true negative about smart meters. ....

Indeed. As I have said, I personally do not feel that there is significant justification for being concerned (at least, not for very many years to come) about the 'negatives' we keep hearing about, BUT nor do I really see any appreciable 'positives'. For the forseeable future, the only 'positive' I see is in relation to remote meter reading (hence 'accurate bills' and 'no more estimated bills' as per their sales pitch), but that's about it.

Instead of being so scared of the future all the old folk who do not like change you should try and embrace it you might actually be surprised.

I'm not sure what you think would surprise, say, me. I do not have a smart meter but already have far more real-time information about the electricity usage in my home than a smart meter would provide, and, should I every have such a bizarre need, I can access much of that information (at least as much as a smart meter would provide) from anywhere in the world over the Internet. What do you think might surprise me?

Anyone can buy, for a very modest price, an energy monitor which will provide similar (even if slightly less accurate) information as does a smart meter ... and, in any event, anyone remotely intelligent should not really need any such aids in order to be able to understand what they would need to do to reduce their electricity usage.

Having said all that, I have no real problem with you, or anyone else, wanting a smart meter if they perceive an advantage to themselves. I suppose that, if I wanted to scrape the barrel, I could point out that the cost of buying, fitting and maintaining smart meters, and the cost of establishing and maintaining the enormous infrastructure needed to support them will inevitably be reflected in an increase in bills for all of us, including those who do not want such a meter. Maybe it would be fairer if people who wanted them had to pay for the 'advantages' of having a smart meter?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

It's the variable tariff adjusted around the customers usage that is one concern for me. The terms from my supplier said you agree to he price per unit being changed without warning at different times of the day depending on usage.

It's surely up to you as to what 'tariff agreement' you sign up to, assuming you are given a choice. For many years, I have always had short-term 'fixed price' contracts, which guarantee no changes whatsoever in charges during the period of the agreement (usually 1, 2 or 3 years), and I feel sure that all suppliers must offer similar deals. Are you saying that your supplier would not offer such tariffs to someone with a smart meter?

In any event, if one has a tariff/contract which allows such changes 'on the run', then they could do it without 'smart' meters. Although only two ('Day' and 'Night') are currently used, my non-'smart' meter has (if I recall correctly) about a dozen 'registers', each of which can be programmed to measure usage during a particular period of the day/night.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

if I wanted to scrape the barrel, I could point out that the cost of buying, fitting and maintaining smart meters, and the cost of establishing and maintaining the enormous infrastructure needed to support them will inevitably be reflected in an increase in bills for all of us, including those who do not want such a meter. Maybe it would be fairer if people who wanted them had to pay for the 'advantages' of having a smart meter?

Not 'will' - already is. Everyone is being charged a surcharge on their bills to raise the necessary funds ( stated as eleven billion pounds / twenty five million homes = £440 each).

Why would the Government - not the supply companies - think it necessary to compulsorily charge the consumer for something that is only going to be of benefit to the them (the consumer)?

 

[Echo the husky]

It basically said you allow the supplier to do whatever they want including changing the tariff. If I get the time I will find the information and post it here. The conditions were pages long and information was hidden behind links and I had to go all over the place to get all the information. It took me 3 evenings to find and read it all.

 

[JohnW2]

It basically said you allow the supplier to do whatever they want including changing the tariff.

Yes, but all 'variable rate' tariff agreements say that (it's what 'variable rate' means), which is why only 'brave' people sign up to them. As I asked, does your supply not offer any 'fixed rate' tariffs, the conditions of whose contracts say exactly the opposite - i.e. that the supplier cannot make any changes to charges during the period of the agreement?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Echo the husky]

I'll have to look.