The death penalty.

[ban-all-sheds]

First off I know many workshy people who could work but won't and spend their days crossing between the pub and the betting office, I live in a big city, most other towns and cities have areas exactly the same.

So on the basis of that, you know that 10's of millions of them would deliberately put themselves into prison so that when they came out they would be able to do something different than shuttle between pub and betting office do you?

Secondly, you think that your benevolent attitudes are intelligent, they're not, the underclass I have just mentioned has been largely created by them.

Do you have a coherent explanation as to how?

Thirdly, when talking of making people face responsibility, I am talking about meaningful punishment that would also act as a deterrant.

So you plan to just flatly ignore the evidence from restorative justice experiments which show that it does actually work? What's the matter -don't you like being confused by the facts when your mind is made up?

Train them as well at the same time, the two things are not mutually exclusive.

They might be, if at the same time they are treated harshly. Do you really think that people can learn effectively without decent nutrition and facilities for exercise and recreation? And do you really think that years of harsh treatment are going to teach them how to properly interact with people when they do leave? And what use will their training be if they aren't given help in finding accommodation and work when they do leave?

Yet again you are displaying the classic desires of the ignorant and vengeful to punish punish punish without a care in the world as to what the end result will be when the people are released. So likely are your policies to increase rather than decrease rates of re-offending one might conclude that you don't want prison to work.

Also many victims would have no wish to meet with perpetrators, unless they had a hammer in their hands.

Maybe they wouldn't but some do, and the results show that even for those who meet the perpetrators reluctantly the psychological benefits are profound.

Fourthly, every post that you make on this subject is all about pandering to criminals. So, you suggested it.

No - it's about not pandering to the ignorant and vengeful who just want to inflict pain and suffering and humiliation, even if it makes things worse.

 

[Shytalkz]

That's better BAS, nary an insult in sight (by your usual standards, anyhow). You must have taken a leaf out of Softy's book .

So you plan to just flatly ignore the evidence from restorative justice experiments which show that it does actually work?

So tell me that this "restorative" system is actually working, in the light of the 16 teenage stabbings thus far, in 2008? As but one example.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) It's only been trialled on a limited basis.

2) It's not a panacea.

 

[Shytalkz]

Clearly. So just what is a panacea to cure all of society's ills, then? Is there such an animal that will a) make the ***** pondlife scumbags more likely to conform to society's norms for evermore, b) deter new perps joining the fray and c) give suitable restitution to the victims and their families?

Yes: the death penalty in deserving cases.

 

[sooey]

I prefer to look at the evidence of what is happening in society, to help me make my mind up.

The results of some "restorative justice experiments" no doubt carried out by some highly paid social worker types in an effort to justify their huge salaries don't interest me.

 

[sooey]

Yet again you are displaying the classic desires of the ignorant and vengeful to punish punish punish without a care in the world as to what the end result will be when the people are released. So likely are your policies to increase rather than decrease rates of re-offending one might conclude that you don't want prison to work.

Yet again you are displaying the classic desires of a morally superior do gooder to help, help, help some of the worst people in society, without a care in the world that what you advocate is likely to increase the numbers of people needing that help, simply because you have removed all elements of real punishment, and replaced them with "excuses", "feather bed prison conditions" and "help". So likely are your policies to increase the size of the non contributing underclass in our society, one might conclude that you are an agent provocateur from some enemy state who doesn't want our society to work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I prefer to look at the evidence of what is happening in society, to help me make my mind up.

But not the evidence of anything else which might be an improvement if it conflicts with your preconceived notion that only increased brutality is the answer?

The results of some "restorative justice experiments" no doubt carried out by some highly paid social worker types in an effort to justify their huge salaries don't interest me.

I'm surprised you can afford a computer and an internet connection if you are so poorly paid that you think social workers are on huge salaries.

But good of you to finally admit that you aren't interested in facts which conflict with your ignorance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yet again you are displaying the classic desires of a morally superior do gooder

I'm pleased that the message has finally got through about my moral superiority.

But I do hope you aren't one of those people who think that wanting to do good things is to be criticised. Do you only want to do bad things?

to help, help, help some of the worst people in society, without a care in the world

On the contrary, my care is to do things which prevent them from reoffending. I realise that you don't want that - you want them to keep offending so that you can keep on getting your rocks off by punishing them, but not everyone is as selfish and twisted as you.

that what you advocate is likely to increase the numbers of people needing that help, simply because you have removed all elements of real punishment, and replaced them with "excuses", "feather bed prison conditions" and "help".

No - I just don't see how brutalising and dehumanising people is going to make them into better behaved ones.

So likely are your policies to increase the size of the non contributing underclass in our society, one might conclude that you are an agent provocateur from some enemy state who doesn't want our society to work.

So if more imprisonment means a better society, why isn't ours much better than all the other countries in Western Europe, given that we have a higher percentage of people in prison?

And why, as they have the highest prison population rate in the world, and long sentences without parole, and (AIUI) harsh prisons, does the USA not have the lowest rates for serious crime?

 

[doitall]

I'm pleased that the message has finally got through about my moral superiority.

Heil Hitler

But I do hope you aren't one of those people who think that wanting to do good things is to be criticised.

Get rid off the do gooders and bleedin hearts and Hang the scum

On the contrary, my care is to do things which prevent them from reoffending.

Hang the scum they won't.!!!!!

I realise that you don't want that - you want them to keep offending so that you can keep on getting your rocks off by punishing them, but not everyone is as selfish and twisted as you.

No !!! you only need the hang the scum once

that what you advocate is likely to increase the numbers of people needing that help, simply because you have removed all elements of real punishment, and replaced them with "excuses", "feather bed prison conditions" and "help".

No - I just don't see how brutalising and dehumanising people is going to make them into better behaved ones.

They'll be dead which is good.

And why, as they have the highest prison population rate in the world, and long sentences without parole, and (AIUI) harsh prisons, does the USA not have the lowest rates for serious crime?

Sowhy do we have prisons at all, according to you we just as well give Our kids to the butchers now

 

[doitall]

On the contrary, my care is to do things which prevent them from reoffending.

Why would want to treat and stop them re-offending ???

or Doesn't life without parole mean that to the bleedin hearts and brain dead

Whats it gonna be BAS Life without parole, no need to waste time or money on them, 8ft cage and throw the key away.

Or Hang the Scum and save the space

 

[Softus]

I can think of lots of reasons for keeping alive the Nazi war criminals who were so hurriedly put to death.

I can think of only one reason for hanging them, and it isn't to gain space.

Death isn't a deterrent, because people who know what the penalty is still go ahead and take the risk.

Death is a toothless penalty, because it's only bringing forward an appointment with the inevitable.

Death isn't a punishment, because it cannot be endured and remembered by the subject of the punishment.

Death isn't cheap to implement.

Death isn't reversible for those people who are later found to be innocent.


Death is nothing more than vengeance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Clearly. So just what is a panacea to cure all of society's ills, then? Is there such an animal that will a) make the ***** pondlife scumbags more likely to conform to society's norms for evermore, b) deter new perps joining the fray and c) give suitable restitution to the victims and their families?

Yes: the death penalty in deserving cases.

Oh look - yet again DIYnot demonstrates how they think it's unacceptable to call people nasty things, but it's perfectly OK to say you want to kill them.

What a ******** ***** of **** ********** ******* you all are.

 

[sooey]

Death isn't a deterrent, because people who know what the penalty is still go ahead and take the risk.

But how many people would choose not to take the risk if the death penalty was in play.

Death is a toothless penalty, because it's only bringing forward an appointment with the inevitable.

There's nothing toothless about losing the remainin 30/40 years or more of your one and only life.

Death isn't a punishment, because it cannot be endured and remembered by the subject of the punishment

Same as above.

Death isn't cheap to implement.

It could always be done on a budget, only takes one bullet.

Death isn't reversible for those people who are later found to be innocent.

True, but neither can those innocents killed by murderers be brought back, a far greater number.

Death is nothing more than vengeance.

Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I would settle for life to mean life, without all the trimmings. There are many cases though, where the guilty don't deserve even that. I'd like to see them swing, even if that makes me a bloodthirsty savage in some eyes.

 

[sooey]

Oh look - yet again DIYnot demonstrates how they think it's unacceptable to call people nasty things, but it's perfectly OK to say you want to kill them.

Yeah, that's called "having a civilised debate" if everyone had the same opinions there would be no debate possible. You need to grow up.

 

[doitall]

Death isn't a deterrent, because people who know what the penalty is still go ahead and take the risk.

That is their choice

Death is a toothless penalty, because it's only bringing forward an appointment with the inevitable.

Death isn't a punishment, because it cannot be endured and remembered by the subject of the punishment.

So you do want to see them suffer

Death isn't cheap to implement.

What price do you put on a Bus load of kids that gets blown to bits.

What price for going to a School in Hungerford and using the kids for target practice.

What price for Holly and Jessica.

Death isn't reversible for those people who are later found to be innocent.

Modern science can say for certain if they are guilty or not.


Death is nothing more than vengeance.[/quote]