Vive La France!

[noseall]

Can the abortion go ahead without signature of 2drs?

Nope.

It's approval. They say so here...

Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate;

Nothing that MBK has demonstrated refutes these words.

 

[denso13]

Not pretending that the law says or means something it doesn’t.

Neither am I. It obviously means that approval, or not, is required. I think I see where you are going wrong though.

 

[noseall]

Neither am I. It obviously means that approval, or not, is required. I think I see where you are going wrong though.

Obvious to the law makers in Parliament, but not MBK apparently.

Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate;

 

[denso13]

And I backed it up with the statute and the case law.

Did you cite the case law, or just you just say,

its not the text in the abortion act that is key its the case law on viability

There was also case law that it could not be 18-21 weeks.

 

[noseall]

• The Abortion Act 1967 mandates that an abortion under specific grounds (A to E) must be certified by two doctors.
• Both doctors are required to sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form, which serves as notification that the abortion has been approved and specifies the grounds for approval.
• Additionally, they must complete an HSA 4 form, providing information such as patient details, the method of abortion, and gestation time1.

 

[noseall]

What is the abortion law in England, Scotland and Wales?​

Abortions can take place in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy in England, Scotland and Wales.
However, they have to be approved by two doctors. They must agree having the baby would pose a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman than a termination.
Abortions were illegal before the the introduction of the 1967 Abortion Act, which initially allowed them to take place up to 28 weeks. This was reduced to 24 weeks in 1990.

 

[noseall]

The following terms in the 1967 Act may be interpreted as follows:

• The law relating to abortion – in England and Wales, this means sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and any rule of law relating to the procurement of abortion.[80] and in Scotland, this means any rule of law relating to the procurement of abortion;[80]
• Terminated by a registered medical practitioner includes a procedure supervised by a medical practitioner – see Royal College of Nursing of the UK v DHSS [1981] AC 800, [1981] 2 WLR 279, [1981] 1 All ER 545, [1981] Crim LR 322, HL;
• Place where termination must be carried out – see sections 1(3) to (4);
• The opinion of two registered medical practitioners – see section 1(4);
• Good faith – see R v Smith (John Anthony James), 58 Cr App R 106, CA;
• Determining the risk of injury in ss. (a) & (b) – see section 1(2);
• Risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman – In R v British Broadcasting Corporation, ex parte ProLife Alliance, Lord Justice Laws said: "There is some evidence that many doctors maintain that the continuance of a pregnancy is always more dangerous to the physical welfare of a woman than having an abortion, a state of affairs which is said to allow a situation of de facto abortion on demand to prevail."[81]

Proposals for reform[edit]​

In March 2023, findings from SACHA, the largest study abortion to be carried out in the UK at that point,[82] which was funded by the NHS, called for nurses and midwives to be included in the medical staff allowed to approve abortions[83]

 

[noseall]

Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved

 

[denso13]

Did you read the text in HSA1 (delete as applicable)

I Have/have not* seen/and examined* the pregnant woman to whom this certificate relates at

There is no requirement for a consultation of any kind.

You are saying that because a doctor can sign the form as "not seen /examined" that no scrutiny of the facts happens. That is not true. Doctors rely on other sources of information in that case.

"It was established in the 1981 case Royal College of Nursing of the United Kingdom v. Department of Health and Social Security that abortion should be considered as a procedure that would be carried out by a medical team comprising doctors, nurses, midwives, and other qualified staff, acting in accordance with good medical practice; and that while a doctor should accept responsibility for 'all stages of the treatment for the termination of pregnancy', he/she did not personally have to conduct every stage of the procedure.

Therefore it has, for many years, been considered good practice for doctors to rely on the information gathered by other members of their team in determining whether a woman meets the criteria for an abortion, just as it is considered good practice for nurses to administer medications."

Abortion Law in Great Britain | BPAS

Britain’s Abortion Law - what it says and why

www.bpas.org

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Does the abortion go ahead if the drs don’t sign?

Everybody knows it can't

Mbk is just going round in smaller circles trying to ignore it. But its the only relevant fact, despite all the bluster he throws out

No 2 doctors. No abortion.

 

[noseall]

1. Approval by Two Doctors: Abortions can take place within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy in England, Scotland, and Wales. However, they must be approved by two doctors. These doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy would pose a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman than having a termination1.

 

[noseall]

No 2 doctors. No abortion.

no approval.

 

[noseall]

CURRENT UK ABORTION LAWS​

Abortions can take place in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy in England, Scotland and Wales. When considering an abortion within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy, two doctors must approve the abortion. The two doctors must be in agreement that having the baby would pose a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman than a termination.

 

[noseall]

If MBK can demonstrate that ALL the above references to the word 'approve' are incorrect, I'll eat my hat. Not once has he refuted any instance. Several (not just one) instances where the two doctors sign off on a HSA1 form is referred to ‘approval’. No caveats. No disclaimers. Clear as day - APPROVE.



Approval occurs with the act of signing, dating (declaring) and sending the HSA1 form.

 

[noseall]

Back page of the Parliamentary report (glossary index)...

ARC Antenatal Results and Choices

BAPM British Association of Perinatal Medicine

BMA British Medical Association

bpas British Pregnancy Advisory Service

CARE Christian Action Research and Education

CMF Christian Medical Fellowship

Cortex A part of the brain which has a number of functions, including interpreting sensory information

DH Department of Health

Ectopic pregnancy When the embryo implants outside the womb, for example, in the fallopian tube

Evidence base, class A Requires at least one randomised controlled trial as part of a body of literature of overall good quality and consistency addressing the specific recommendation

Evidence base, class B Requires the availability of well-conducted clinical studies, but no randomised clinical trials on the topic of the recommendation

FSRH Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare

fpa Family Planning Association

GCD Guild of Catholic Doctors

Gestation The period of development in the womb

HSA forms Department of Health forms: HSA 1 is to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds; HSA 4 is for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

Neonate A newly born infant

NICU Neonatal intensive care unit

Placenta praevia When the placenta is low in the uterus and covers all or part of the cervix

Postpartum After delivery (postnatally)

Preterm Premature; delivered before 37 weeks of gestation. Extremely preterm means before 28 weeks.

RCN Royal College of Nursing

RCOG Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

SCHB Scottish Council on Human Bioethics

SPUC Society for the Protection of Unborn Children

Thalamus A part of the brain which has a number of functions, including relaying sensory information to the cortex.

Trimester A period of time that is approximately three months. Pregnancies are divided into three periods called 'trimesters'. The first trimester is approximately 0-13 weeks; the second trimester is approximately 14-27 weeks; the third trimester is from 28 weeks to term (approximately 40 weeks).

UCLH University College London Hospital