Vive La France!

[Odds]

You are saying that because a doctor can sign the form as "not seen /examined" that no scrutiny of the facts happens. That is not true. Doctors rely on other sources of information in that case.

"It was established in the 1981 case Royal College of Nursing of the United Kingdom v. Department of Health and Social Security that abortion should be considered as a procedure that would be carried out by a medical team comprising doctors, nurses, midwives, and other qualified staff, acting in accordance with good medical practice; and that while a doctor should accept responsibility for 'all stages of the treatment for the termination of pregnancy', he/she did not personally have to conduct every stage of the procedure.

Therefore it has, for many years, been considered good practice for doctors to rely on the information gathered by other members of their team in determining whether a woman meets the criteria for an abortion, just as it is considered good practice for nurses to administer medications."

Abortion Law in Great Britain | BPAS

Britain’s Abortion Law - what it says and why

www.bpas.org

How long should it take for an accurate psychiatric evaluation take to determine whether or not mental stress can be cited as an adequate reason to administer the medication to induce an abortion?
If a girl of sixteen years finds out she's made a real bad mistake and claims to be anxious about the pregnancy - which she should be - but only discovered she was pregnant at, say, 20 weeks, it wouldn't leave much time to endorse the procedure to legally occur.

 

[noseall]

But you are wrong.

HSA 1 is not an approval document it is a certificate of opinion.

WRONG. From the glossary

ARC Antenatal Results and Choices

BAPM British Association of Perinatal Medicine

BMA British Medical Association

bpas British Pregnancy Advisory Service

CARE Christian Action Research and Education

CMF Christian Medical Fellowship

Cortex A part of the brain which has a number of functions, including interpreting sensory information

DH Department of Health

Ectopic pregnancy When the embryo implants outside the womb, for example, in the fallopian tube

Evidence base, class A Requires at least one randomised controlled trial as part of a body of literature of overall good quality and consistency addressing the specific recommendation

Evidence base, class B Requires the availability of well-conducted clinical studies, but no randomised clinical trials on the topic of the recommendation

FSRH Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare

fpa Family Planning Association

GCD Guild of Catholic Doctors

Gestation The period of development in the womb

HSA forms Department of Health forms: HSA 1 is to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds; HSA 4 is for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

Neonate A newly born infant

NICU Neonatal intensive care unit

 

[noseall]

10% of forms go missing, are incorrectly completed or the subsequent notification form missed. All these terminations proceed and they do without any criminal offences being committed.

What did you mean when you wrote "10% of forms go missing" and where did you hallucinate this little snippet?

 

[noseall]

.

 

[noseall]

How long should it take for an accurate psychiatric evaluation take to determine whether or not mental stress can be cited as an adequate reason to administer the medication to induce an abortion?
If a girl of sixteen years finds out she's made a real bad mistake and claims to be anxious about the pregnancy - which she should be - but only discovered she was pregnant at, say, 20 weeks, it wouldn't leave much time to endorse the procedure to legally occur.

Minutes? Seconds?

It is already assumed that pregnancy and birth is stressful and can affect the mental health of the women. So in that respect, abortion on those grounds are more or less already approved.

 

[JonathanM]

The original 1967 Act also says abortion is legal if there is risk to mental health etc.

It doesn’t matter because the 1929 act was still in force and the case law of ([c vs S [1987] EWCA Civ J0225-1). Tested that the 28 week limit was actually the upper limit not the lower limit.

The point I was making was that, under the original Act, a pregnant woman could still have an abortion on the grounds that having the baby would impact her mental health. It is exactly the same wording as 1991. The only difference is that, since 1991, there has been a hard limit on doing this of 24 weeks. Prior to 1991, there was a hard upper limit of 28 weeks, but also potentially a slightly lower limit in cases where the foetus might be classed as viable. So, there was some uncertainty about the time limit from say 21 weeks to 28 weeks.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that the ground was available and was used for the overwhelming majority of abortions before 1991. That is simply because the overwhelming majority of abortions take place much earlier than 20 weeks.

 

[JonathanM]

It is already assumed that pregnancy and birth is stressful and can affect the mental health of the women. So in that respect, abortion on those grounds are more or less already approved.

Was it worth 70 pages of argument, then?

 

[Notch7]

But you are wrong.

HSA 1 is not an approval document it is a certificate of opinion. Does this person's circumstances meet the criteria. Simple

You are not understanding the word “approval” has two uses, two meanings.


1) it means ‘the action of approving something, it is the formal or official statement that something is acceptable
example: “the road scheme has been approved”
example: ‘we have received building regulations approval’

2) the belief that something is good or acceptable, a positive opinion of something or somebody
example: “I approve of the outfit my wife is wearing”



Drs signing form HSA1 is the act of approval. That is meaning 1

 

[blup]

How were you held to account? Did the Mods block you or delete your posts etc?

Its the way the forum works, I'm not suggesting censorship - for either side.

 

[Notch7]

Was it worth 70 pages of argument, then?

Why are you choosing to ask that question to Noseall rather than MTB?

 

[blup]

That's not the only way to end this. It just needs one party to say "It's clear we are never going to agree, we are just going over the same arguments time and time again, so why don't we just stop"



The meaning of the word "approve"?

P.S. It looks you're being dragged in now!

Its a two way process, you can drag yourself in though.

 

[JonathanM]

Its the way the forum works, I'm not suggesting censorship - for either side.

I have absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean!

In what way were you "held to account". Do you simply mean that other posters challenged you?

 

[blup]

If doctors don’t sign the form then the abortion can’t go ahead

Therefore the process requires doctors signatures to approve it.

Its elective, the doctors are making a medical certification, quite an important point if you are a medic. I imagine the wording was carefully chosen after consultation with medics ( back in the day when parliament actually consulted).

 

[Notch7]

What did you mean when you wrote "10% of forms go missing" and where did you hallucinate this little snippet?

It is 10% of forms HSA4 that go missing.

MBK was being deliberately dishonest, in order to use that stat to support his counter argument.

It’s the reason he used the non specific term “form”

 

[Odds]

Minutes? Seconds?

It is already assumed that pregnancy and birth is stressful and can affect the mental health of the women. So in that respect, abortion on those grounds are more or less already approved.

You really want to say it takes five minutes to make that assessment?

Okay.