Vive La France!

[blup]

Utter waffle.

Its an important topic

 

[motorbiking]

Can the abortion go ahead without signature of 2drs?

Certainly it’s not the basis for the exemption.

 

[Odds]

The problem with a righteous stance is that it leads to a society where women being pregnant and having a child out of wedlock is frowned upon

Back in the fifties and sixties, single women getting pregnant were carted off to a refuse once the bump started to be visible, where they were hidden away from the family until after the birth. The woman was then forced to give up the child and it was taken away shortly after birth for adoption.

Some of those women have suffered a life of mental illness as a result, some have been unable to have stable relationships. It has destroyed lives. Where’s the moral goodness in that?

This is why sex education plays a role in limiting the damage done...

In 2021, over half of teenage pregnancies in England and Wales led to an abortion, while in the same year 40.1 percent of pregnancies among 20 to 24-year-olds also led to an abortion. The age group with the lowest share of conceptions leading to abortions was among 30 to 34-year-olds, at 18.3 percent.

The number of women having abortions has risen dramatically since 2016.

Is it due to the ease of access to a sympathetic medical opinion which has led to this rise or have women found it a convenient way to manage birth control ?

​

 

[JonathanM]

Why are you choosing to ask that question to Noseall rather than MTB?

Because in this instance I was replying to a post by Noseall.

Also, because it is your side of the argument who have been stressing the importance of "approval". After 70 pages, to then state that it in the overwhelming majority of cases it is essentially just a tick box exercise amused me.

However, I made a few open posts yesterday suggesting that you all just accept that this argument isn't going anywhere and that it might be better just to agree to stop. The answer I got was not until MBK admits he was wrong.

 

[motorbiking]

The point I was making was that, under the original Act, a pregnant woman could still have an abortion on the grounds that having the baby would impact her mental health. It is exactly the same wording as 1991. The only difference is that, since 1991, there has been a hard limit on doing this of 24 weeks. Prior to 1991, there was a hard upper limit of 28 weeks, but also potentially a slightly lower limit in cases where the foetus might be classed as viable. So, there was some uncertainty about the time limit from say 21 weeks to 28 weeks.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that the ground was available and was used for the overwhelming majority of abortions before 1991. That is simply because the overwhelming majority of abortions take place much earlier than 20 weeks.

No that’s incorrect.

The ‘67 legislation did not amend to ‘29 legislation. So those requesting or carrying out a termination on socio-economic grounds are not protected if the unborn baby turns out to be viable.

 

[Notch7]

Its elective, the doctors are making a medical certification, quite an important point if you are a medic. I imagine the wording was carefully chosen after consultation with medics ( back in the day when parliament actually consulted).

Indeed.

The reason approval doesn’t appear on HSA1 is because it has 2 meanings.

If they used the word “approve” it might imply doctors are giving their personal approval, which could be a moral judgement.

they are signing as an official approval, they are signing to say “yup it meets the criteria”


The abortion act is a strange law because, as you say, it is an elective procedure, it cant really be refused, a woman has the right to choose it.


But nevertheless the 2 doctor signature is required, it can’t go ahead without their approval

 

[Odds]

214,869 abortions were reported in England and Wales in 2021, the highest since records began. The vast majority of these abortions (214,256) were to residents of England and Wales. This represents an age-standardised abortion rate (ASR) of 18.6 per 1,000 resident women aged 15 to 44. This is the highest rate recorded, exceeding the previous peak in 2020, (18.2 abortions per 1,000 resident women aged 15 to 44).

The age standardised abortion rate per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44, England and Wales from 1969 to 2021 has risen to record heights because the law has made it simpler to find a medical opinion to administer a procedure under the broad ruling of 'mental stress'.
Is sex education in schools failing to redress this problem or has our society made it acceptable for it to be done at all?

 

[JonathanM]

No that’s incorrect.

The ‘67 legislation did not amend to ‘29 legislation. So those requesting or carrying out a termination on socio-economic grounds are not protected if the unborn baby turns out to be viable.

I understand all that. But they are protected in a situation where there could be no chance that the baby would be viable. So definitely protected before, for example, 18 weeks.

 

[motorbiking]

Did you cite the case law, or just you just say,

C v s I cited it.

I understand all that. But they are protected in a situation where there could be no chance that the baby would be viable. So definitely protected before 18 weeks.

It would depend when. Until C vs S it was untested. The law shortly changed after.

If you look at C vs S you will see the expert witnesses could not agree.

Risky for all involved.

 

[motorbiking]

Indeed.

The reason approval doesn’t appear on HSA1 is because it has 2 meanings.

If they used the word “approve” it might imply doctors are giving their personal approval, which could be a moral judgement.

they are signing as an official approval, they are signing to say “yup it meets the criteria”


The abortion act is a strange law because, as you say, it is an elective procedure, it cant really be refused, a woman has the right to choose it.


But nevertheless the 2 doctor signature is required, it can’t go ahead without their approval

If only they’d thought of that in the declaration on the certificate of opinion. The reason approval isn’t mentions is…. Because it’s not an approval not morally nor medically. It is a certificate of opinion. These are common things in many other scenarios.

Don’t slip as you climb down.

 

[JonathanM]

It would depend when. Until C vs S it was untested. The law shortly changed after.

If you look at C vs S you will see the expert witnesses could not agree.

Risky for all involved.

If you are correct, bearing in mind the mental health ground is used for 98% of abortions, surely we would have seen an absolutely enormous spike in abortions after 1991.

 

[motorbiking]

The vast majority of people don’t read statutes and case law to understand their rights. I suspect attitudes to abortion are things that evolve slowly.

Just my opinion however.

 

[Notch7]

Because in this instance I was replying to a post by Noseall.

Also, because it is your side of the argument who have been stressing the importance of "approval

It’s fair to say you were replying to Noseall is a strawman, you could’ve replied to Motorbiking

“Your side of the argument” Mmm, it was Motorbiking who began the argument, he discredited the use of the word approval…..he was trying to show his legal superiority.


I’m just pointing out your bias, both Motorbiking and Noseall have been arguing this equally, but you chose to criticise one side…..that’s all I’m saying.

I’ve been following your posts on the legal aspects with interest, it’s certainly made me read more about what is a unique law not like anything else.

 

[noseall]

Was it worth 70 pages of argument, then?

It was quite clear the word approve applied about 30 pages in.

 

[noseall]

Can the abortion go ahead without signature of 2drs?

No. It requires their approval via a HSA1 form.