Vive La France!

[denso13]

two RMPs could form an opinion in good faith only to find out that the criteria wasn't met after the event

Of course. The example that odds gave was where a woman lied about how far gone she was to get abortion pills described. She took the fall for it, not the doctor. He/she prescribed them after forming an opinion that the woman was telling the truth when she wasn't.

 

[JonathanM]

It really isn't.

It would be very difficult and in most cases illegal to go ahead without her permission.

 

[JonathanM]

its nothing more than a document required to ensure the opinion has been made. it has no legal weight on the abortion act. In fact all the abortion act says is that the Secretary of State must create a mechanism for documenting the opinion

Isn't that exactly what the statement says? When you break it down?

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence that the law has been complied with

by ensuring that medical practitioners make a legal declaration that they have formed their opinion in good faith

All the statement is saying is that the purpose of the certificate is simply to document that the legal requirement to reach an opinion in good faith has been complied with? Isn't that what you have been saying all along?

 

[motorbiking]

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence document that the opinions required by the law abortion act 1967 as amended, have been addressed.

 

[motorbiking]

We are going round in circles. What if, in their opinion the criteria aren't met?

you understand that is entirely different to "And if they aren't met then she can't proceed, legally."

One is a statement of fact the other is an opinion.

 

[JonathanM]

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence document that the opinions required by the law abortion act 1967 as amended, have been addressed formed in good faith

 

[motorbiking]

lovely - want a job? I need drafter.

 

[JonathanM]

I'm still trying to clarify where the main points of difference lie.

@noseall @Notch7 @denso13 @carmanmemoranda

What do you think of the following statement. Are you happy with it? MBK has submitted his thoughts.

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence that the law has been complied with, by ensuring that medical practitioners make a legal declaration that they have formed their opinion in good faith.

 

[Notch7]

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence document that the opinions required by the law abortion act 1967 as amended, have been addressed.

they arent "opinions required by the abortion act"

the opinions are those of the doctors, that the criteria as stipulated by the abortion act have been met

and for the abortion to go ahead the doctors approve it by signing

 

[noseall]

The decision to proceed is the woman's, nothing to do with anyone else's approval.

Are you saying she can bypass the two doctors thing and get an abortion (lawfully) without their approval?

 

[noseall]

I'm still trying to clarify where the main points of difference lie.

@noseall @Notch7 @denso13 @carmanmemoranda

What do you think of the following statement. Are you happy with it? MBK has submitted his thoughts.

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence that the law has been complied with, by ensuring that medical practitioners make a legal declaration that they have formed their opinion in good faith.

Great.

Once they sign and date the HSA1 form, the abortion is approved. Simple.

It says so here...
The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

 

[JonathanM]

lovely - want a job? I need drafter.

 

[noseall]

that is not strictly true.

Again - it is an opinion. that is not a statement of fact.

two RMPs could form an opinion in good faith only to find out that the criteria wasn't met after the event. Nothing in the abortion act criteria is based on fact.

Irrelevant. Once they have given their opinion, signed and dated the form, the abortion is approved. It says so here...

The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

 

[blup]

Are you saying she can bypass the two doctors thing and get an abortion (lawfully) without their approval?

Not bypass because the doctors' need to certify their opinion that the medical circumstances apply so that the legal exemption is triggered. MBK would say that this is not an approval and that seems to be correct because its also what the law doesn't say

 

[noseall]

the doctors' need to certify their opinion that the medical circumstances apply so that the legal exemption is triggered.

FFS. I don't think I have ever seen a sentence try and say the word 'approve' so much, without actually saying it lol.

MBK would say that this is not an approval

That is because MBK puts his fingers in his ears, closes his eyes tightly and sings la-la-la-la-la loudly to himself when he sees this....

The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.


and this

Glossary ARC Antenatal Results and Choices BAPM British Association of Perinatal Medicine BMA British Medical Association bpas British Pregnancy Advisory Service CARE Christian Action Research and Education CMF Christian Medical Fellowship Cortex A part of the brain which has a number of functions, including interpreting sensory information DH Department of Health Ectopic pregnancy When the embryo implants outside the womb, for example, in the fallopian tube Evidence base, class A Requires at least one randomised controlled trial as part of a body of literature of overall good quality and consistency addressing the specific recommendation Evidence base, class B Requires the availability of well-conducted clinical studies, but no randomised clinical trials on the topic of the recommendation FSRH Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare fpa Family Planning Association GCD Guild of Catholic Doctors Gestation The period of development in the womb HSA forms Department of Health forms: HSA 1 is to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds; HSA 4 is for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time. Neonate A newly born infant NICU Neonatal intensive care unit Placenta praevia When the placenta is low in the uterus and covers all or part of the cervix Postpartum After delivery (postnatally) Preterm Premature; delivered before 37 weeks of gestation. Extremely preterm means before 28 weeks. RCN Royal College of Nursing RCOG Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists SCHB Scottish Council on Human Bioethics SPUC Society for the Protection of Unborn Children Thalamus A part of the brain which has a number of functions, including relaying sensory information to the cortex. Trimester A period of time that is approximately three months. Pregnancies are divided into three periods called 'trimesters'. The first trimester is approximately 0-13 weeks; the second trimester is approximately 14-27 weeks; the third trimester is from 28 weeks to term (approximately 40 weeks). UCLH University College London Hospital Read and weep boyo.