Vive La France!

[Notch7]

You'd expect to find that in the declaration?

I approve that the above opinion was made in good faith?

We hereby approve that we are of the opinion, formed in good faith, that in the case..

except the word certify is used..

how odd.

Certify means approve

Finally MBK finally admits signing form HSA1 is an act of approval.

We got there after 60+ pages

 

[motorbiking]

It would be if the following were on the form.

I hereby approve..

But sadly I couldn't find the word approve anywhere on the form.

So that we are clear signing Form HSA1 is required by sec 3 of The Abortion Regulations 1991 and its existence or lack of has no impact on Section 1 of the Abortion Act 1967.

 

[noseall]

perhaps they expected you to read the actual law?

Who is 'they'? I have read many instances where they say the two doctors' sign off is approving an abortion. You have shown NOTHING that contradicts that or suggests that it is wrong or inaccurate.

Why do folk use the word approve? What makes your say-so, deem it wrong. Nowt that's what.

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

Read it and weep, boyo.

 

[noseall]

Certify means approve

Correct.

 

[motorbiking]

You understand its not a piece of law right?

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmsctech/1045/1045i.pdf

It is a paper examining the scientific issues relating to abortion.

 

[JonathanM]

Doctors have the power to let something proceed, or not, based their opinion of whether legal criteria are met.

Maybe the way to resolve this is to come up with a definition of what the two doctors are actually doing in practice. And then debate whether that means approval. Would MBK agree with the above definition? Essentially, narrow the issue down like at a defamation trial.

 

[motorbiking]

Can we just see if we can get noseall to post his parliamentary report a couple more times I think it makes him happy.

 

[blup]

Yes approval. It is stated in many pages, that once the abortion has been signed off then the abortion is approved.


What do you mean, approval is the woman's choice?

The decision to proceed is the woman's, nothing to do with anyone else's approval.

 

[JonathanM]

Would anyone disagree with the following statement?

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence that the law has been complied with, by ensuring that medical practitioners make a legal declaration that they have formed their opinion in good faith.

 

[blup]

certifying that the medical exemptions apply: otherwise known as approval

"not an approval of the procedure" -yes approval it can go ahead, no not moral approval

Not an approval, either personal, professional or legal. It is a neutral certification that medical pre conditions are met

 

[denso13]

The decision to proceed is the woman's,

It really isn't.

 

[motorbiking]

Would anyone disagree with the following statement?

The purpose of certification is to provide evidence that the law has been complied with, by ensuring that medical practitioners make a legal declaration that they have formed their opinion in good faith.

its nothing more than a document required to ensure the opinion has been made. it has no legal weight on the abortion act. In fact all the abortion act says is that the Secretary of State must create a mechanism for documenting the opinion and that wilful failure to follow it is an offence subject to 14 years... life?... oh no wait a fine.

 

[denso13]

It is a neutral certification that medical pre conditions are met

And if they aren't met then she can't proceed, legally.

 

[motorbiking]

that is not strictly true.

Again - it is an opinion. that is not a statement of fact.

two RMPs could form an opinion in good faith only to find out that the criteria wasn't met after the event. Nothing in the abortion act criteria is based on fact.

 

[denso13]

that is not strictly true.

We are going round in circles. What if, in their opinion the criteria aren't met?