Vive La France!

[noseall]

All completely and utterly wrong

Please say what happens if form HSA1 is not signed.

Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

The Act says must. Read and weep boyo.

Apology accepted.

 

[noseall]

your source again is neither case law

Irrelevant.

 

[noseall]

There is no need to approve anything. The form is even called a certificate of opinion. Failure to sign the form does not make the abortion illegal. It's the forming of opinion that makes it legal. A judge is not going the hand a prison sentence to someone who failed to fill out a form.

Sec 2,3 of the act says the failure must be wilful and the penalty is a level 5 fine - that a pretty big fine potentially.

More irrelevance.

Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

Straight form the lawmakers boyo. Stick that in your pipe.

 

[noseall]

No sign off (HSA1 form etc) - no abortion.


Requirement for two doctors' signatures

84. The Abortion Act 1967 requires that an abortion under ground A to E is certified by two doctors, who must each sign a Department of Health HSA 1 form to give notification that the abortion has been approved and on what grounds, and an HSA 4 form for information including patient details, the method of abortion and gestation time.

85. A range of explanations have been given for the introduction of the requirement for two doctors' signatures:

• to ensure that the provisions in the legislation were being observed ;[96]
• to protect women;[97]
• to protect doctors from breaking the law ;[98]
• to demonstrate the medico-legal concerns of Parliament, namely that the 1967 Act did not make abortion legal but conferred upon doctors a defence against illegality—the two doctors are expected to police each other; [99]
• to show the seriousness of the decision to terminate; [100]

 

[motorbiking]

So she needs 2 doctors

Bj jove, we are getting there.

So how do these doctors confirm their opinion? Verbally ? No records ?

they could - the requirement to document is entirely separate. Its even documented in a separate provision

 

[motorbiking]

And if the failure to sign was deliberate ?

An offence is committed, subject to a fine.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

they could - the requirement to document is entirely separate. Its even documented in a separate provision

But there is a record of their approval?

Even if its just their notes.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

An offence is committed, subject to a fine.

Bj jove.

We are nearly there.

It's painful for you though

 

[noseall]

No approval no abortion.
The rest of your waffle is irrelevant boyo

Apology accepted.

 

[noseall]

An offence is committed, subject to a fine.

More irrelevance

No approval no abortion.

 

[JonathanM]

Just to confirm, as I said above, that I am not weighing in on the argument taking place in this thread about whether two doctors need to "approve" the abortion. I don't think that is ever going to be resolved, because it is open to too much interpretation. I have only been trying to help clear up some of the technical legal aspects around which offences might be committed in various situations and at various stages.

The HSA1 form is also part of this process, which you are forgetting. It is a pre-abortion requisite, which will be forwarded to the relevant people and the people dealing with the abortion. The third doctor will have jumped the gun and will be acting unlawfully, in terms of the Act.

I would say that as long as the third doctor is content, after reading the other doctor's notes, that they have come to a good faith opinion, he hasn't acted unlawfully. He has acted unprofessionally and might be liable to sanction. But there is no criminal offence, either in the Abortion Act, or the Offences Against the Persons Act, that he has committed. If after carrying out the abortion, he wilfully doesn't complete the HSA4, then he will have committed an offence, and will be liable for a big fine.

 

[Notch7]

because it is open to too much interpretation

It simply isnt

the act of signing is the approval

I would say that as long as the third doctor is content, after reading the other doctor's notes,

that is theoretical only

the if form HSA1 doesnt get signed, it wont get sent, so the 3rd doctor will never be booked to do an abortion

 

[noseall]

it is open to too much interpretation.

Nonsense.
It is both explicit and distinct. No approval no abortion.

 

[JonathanM]

that is theoretical only

the if form HSA1 doesnt get signed, it wont get sent, so the 3rd doctor will never be booked to do an abortion

You can't understand the law if you don't understand the theory behind it.

I only got involved because I could see that nobody was picking up on one of the points MBK kept making i.e. that if an abortion goes ahead without an HSA1, then that doesn't make it an "illegal abortion" under the OAPA, as long as a good faith opinion was reached. My hope was that by clarifying some of the technical aspects, it might help move things forward.

It is not purely theoretical in any event. A huge number of mistakes happen in the practice of medicine. Should a doctor face life imprisonment for misreading a form?

I have no interest in the wider debate on here about whether or not doctors need to "approve" the abortion.

 

[JonathanM]

Nonsense.
It is both explicit and distinct. No approval no abortion.

I have no interest in that debate and the 60 pages it has taken so far.