WARNING = Highway Code Changes - A disaster in the making

[diy_fun_uk]

Although I'm rarely a pedestrian, I have to admit if I was about to cross at a junction and saw a vehicle approach that was either indicating to turn in at said junction or slowing down giving the impression it might turn in, I would stop and wait for it to complete its manoeuvre before I crossed. I wouldn't step out onto the road thinking 'ah, the highway code and law has me covered here!' I'd be thinking more about my overall safety.

 

[IT Minion]

@AngleEyes - So you agree that it would potentially be unwise to take a best practice guide written for motorcycles and adapt it to cycles?

@IT Minion - all of the groups I used to ride (MTB, road and TT) with will typically take the secondary position on busy roads. Many of the chat forums are critical of the prime position, unless approaching junctions. On TT events the advice was to take the secondary position.

There seems to be several factions, those who don’t drive and those who do. For those who do, the wisdom of prime is challenged. For those who don’t there seems to be a car hating mantra. The guy who wrote cycle craft fits in to the second group.

So your objection isn't about adopting the prime position, it's about how much it should be adopted? And that you don't like the person who wrote cycle craft.

 

[AngleEyes]

@AngleEyes - So you agree that it would potentially be unwise to take a best practice guide written for motorcycles and adapt it to cycles?

@IT Minion - all of the groups I used to ride (MTB, road and TT) with will typically take the secondary position on busy roads. Many of the chat forums are critical of the prime position, unless approaching junctions. On TT events the advice was to take the secondary position.

There seems to be several factions, those who don’t drive and those who do. For those who do, the wisdom of prime is challenged. For those who don’t there seems to be a car hating mantra. The guy who wrote cycle craft fits in to the second group.

Let's get real. Most of the cycling - motoring mixed traffic is likely to occur in built-up areas.
That can't be said for the motorcycling - motoring mixed traffic.
There has been a local and national move towards slowing down the traffic in built-up areas, unless there are major roads running through.
In the former case, traffic slowing down to be more considerate towards cyclists is merely a continuation on a theme. In the latter case, the major roads become more unwelcoming and even unsafe for cyclists and pedestrians, and are designed to be so, with either a total absence of cycle lanes, or a total separation of such lanes, and no pavements provided to exclude pedestrians.

There are no such dedicated lanes for motorcyclists, so any comparison is not valid.

 

[motorbiking]

So your objection isn't about adopting the prime position, it's about how much it should be adopted? And that you don't like the person who wrote cycle craft.

I don't dislike him, but there is a lot of public info about that suggest he's not objective. https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=130618 and his role as Expert witness has not been exactly successful.

Yes - riding plans should be adaptive based on the hierarchy of risk (what will happen, down to what could happen and when)

Look at this article in the guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/01/cyclist-take-the-lane

Again - no vulnerable road user should take a position with the aim of preventing or forcing someone in a ton of metal to do something or not do something. It will end in tears.

Would you take the prime position in any of these situations:
- approaching a narrow blind hump back bridge?
- approaching a tight right hand bend?
- when a vehicle ahead is indicating to turn right?
- when an oncoming bus is indicating to rejoin?
- when the vehicle behind has moved up to overtake?

When I ride - I will normally aim to be about 1M from the curb, that enables me to move over if someone overtakes me when its too close. If idiot coppers can't drive safely there is no hope for cyclists and the primary position wont help.

 

[AngleEyes]

Again - no vulnerable road user should take a position with the aim of preventing or forcing someone in a ton of metal to do something or not do something. It will end in tears.

The actual words used are 'deterring'.
If a motorist becomes impatient and overly aggressive, no sensible person is going to stand in their way.
But it is the motorist that is at fault and it will only serve to vilify the motorists in general as impatient aggressive road users.

 

[motorbiking]

The actual words used are 'deterring'.
If a motorist becomes impatient and overly aggressive, no sensible person is going to stand in their way.
But it is the motorist that is at fault and it will only serve to vilify the motorists in general as impatient aggressive road users.

YouTube is full of "road warrior" head cam footage that will disagree. Plus generally in these situations its the non-rational amygdala that is calling the shots. "I'm in the right and I will fight you" Red mist etc..

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Although I'm rarely a pedestrian, I have to admit if I was about to cross at a junction and saw a vehicle approach that was either indicating to turn in at said junction or slowing down giving the impression it might turn in, I would stop and wait for it to complete its manoeuvre before I crossed. I wouldn't step out onto the road thinking 'ah, the highway code and law has me covered here!' I'd be thinking more about my overall safety.

Yes, insistance on your right of way is all very well, but not much good when you're lying under the wheels of a lorry. Too much reliance on right of way. See the lemmings on zebra and pelican crossings (perhaps these should be renamed) who loook straight ahead when they cross, not checking the traffic has actually stopped.

 

[AngleEyes]

YouTube is full of "road warrior" head cam footage that will disagree. Plus generally in these situations its the non-rational amygdala that is calling the shots. "I'm in the right and I will fight you" Red mist etc..

You conveniently ignore the road warriors behind the wheel, of which I recall, in all my years of motoring, there are so many more.

 

[AngleEyes]

Yes, insistance on your right of way is all very well, but not much good when you're lying under the wheels of a lorry. Too much reliance on right of way. See the lemmings on zebra and pelican crossings (perhaps these should be renamed) who loook straight ahead when they cross, not checking the traffic has actually stopped.

You conveniently ignore the motorists who are occupied with other stuff going on within their own vehicle.

 

[motorbiking]

its how our brains work. You have to train this out.

 

[joe384]

I have had second thoughts about this. It is madness to think that people in today's world would change their behaviour and do this, but it would be great if it did happen. I'd be happy to do it, because as Ross Clark says it is an example of how a conservative government can promote civilised values.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/entitled-motorists-have-ruled-the-roads-for-far-too-long

How is it going to work in practice though, especially on fast, busy A-roads? Will it be just another law that nobody gets done for? Tailgating was made a specific offence a few years ago but I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.

I always used to stop if someone was crossing the road or looked like they weren't paying attention. However, the problem is that every time I do this there is always the chance I will get rear-ended or something even more fatal will happen on the main road as drivers don't expect someone to stop mid corner.

I don't see the point of coming to a stop mid corner if they are already waiting as this shows the pedestrian was already being aware of the traffic - by stopping mid corner when it's not nessary is IMO the more dangerous thing to do.

Yes courtesy if a good thing but not if it causes more accidents.

 

[AngleEyes]

its how our brains work. You have to train this out.

The roads will be safer for cyclists by educating motorists to be more considerate to cyclists.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

There has been a local and national move towards slowing down the traffic in built-up areas, unless there are major roads running through.

The strange thing is, although there were undoubtedly less vehicles on the roads at the time, I don't recall the roads being like whacky races 20+ years ago (i.e. pre most of the traffic calming stuff) if anything things have got worse e.g. my earlier post about folk darting about impatiently here there and everywhere.

Taking speed 'cushions' as an example, I used to live on a street with them, with a set right outside our house. Was a 20 zone. Trust me, those that still wanted to exceed the speed limit did so, the speed cushions did nothing to slow them down although I hate to think what it was doing to their suspension.

I must admit, what frustrates me slightly in some cases is stretches of road that were historically 60 limits changed to 40.

The strategy to become more cyclist/pedestrian friendly will no doubt continue. Some look on this as being anti-car, others simply look on it as progress. I'm a bit between tbh. I'm also thankful that I started driving just over 30 years ago, so I had a good few years of being able to drive before most of these measures came in. I think, from a driving pleasure perspective, things have been in decline for years and that trend will only continue depending on your perspective of what driving, in its entirety, is all about.

 

[AngleEyes]

I always used to stop if someone was crossing the road or looked like they weren't paying attention. However, the problem is that every time I do this there is always the chance I will get rear-ended or something even more fatal will happen on the main road as drivers don't expect someone to stop mid corner.

I don't see the point of coming to a stop mid corner if they are already waiting as this shows the pedestrian was already being aware of the traffic - by stopping mid corner when it's not nessary is IMO the more dangerous thing to do.

Yes courtesy if a good thing but not if it causes more accidents.

I have always given way to pedestrians crossing the road, and I've never been rear ended. And as far as I am aware there's never been any accidents occurring in my rear view mirror.
It does look like there's a lot of urban mythology and mythological make-believe being used as an excuse to not be considerate to cyclists.

 

[motorbiking]

Some of the highway strategies have the opposite effect. For example:
- placing islands next to bus stops to stop people overtaking
- placing fences next to roundabouts to stop people seeing on the approach
- pinch points and priorities etc..

It just makes people angry/frustrated. But then on the other hand slow people down to a speed that they lose engagement and out comes the mobile phone.

Very few people take further training after the test and lots of cycling "experts" have no experience of other forms of transport.

@AngleEyes - I was rear ended on a zebra once when I stopped to let someone cross. Lady who rear ended me got done for careless driving. asked me to be her witness

It does look like there's a lot of urban mythology and mythological make-believe being used as an excuse to not be considerate to cyclists.

Evidence ? expertise? what qualifies/leads you to conclude this?