Where is the house's earth

What happens in TT installations when the neutral is lost/stolen?

Depends on how many paths there are to Ground, the impedance of these paths and the current carrying capacity of the bonds to these Grounds

One of the worse incidents so far

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14075618

Bond wires between the MET and the water supply melted, the water supply network was all metal, very low impedance return to the substation Neutral and were therefore carrying the neutral currents for the houses. It isn't reported as to why gas pipes began to leak.

Another is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ters-called-71-homes-massive-power-surge.html
MET fire.jpg

where the seat of this fire is the MET or the cable between MET and the Neutral in the cut out. The neter is not damaged but is covered in soot. Not a power surge but copper theft. Loss of Neutral would have meant some properties would have had higher than 230 volts due to phase unbalance in the area.
 
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Regarding adding earth rods to a PME system - it's quite possible that there is some subtle disadvantage that this could introduce, such as high earth currents theough too-thin earth wires causing heating. Don't do it.

I don't think that's a risk. Yes, your additional rods may become the return path of the neutral is lost, but the impedance will be such that the earth conductor will not struggle to cope with the current. It's quite a standard arrangement in other countries and should only serve to make a TN-C-S arrangement safer.
 
Bernard you're right but you appear to be thinking of tn-c-s rather then TT. For TT a lost live or neutral would both be of little consequence on their own.
 
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Taking all possible faults into account then TT with reliable RCD protection and a reliable ground rod system is by far the best way to provide protective Earth to an installation.

Muddy the waters with probabilities of ground rods going high impedance in a dry summer and RCDs failing to trip and the preference swings towards an Earth derived from rhe incoming Neutral

For TT a lost live or neutral would both be of little consequence on their own
\True and that is another "vote" for TT
 
Exactly, so is there any advantage in having an electrode connected to a TNC-S installation?
Good question, well I suppose it would marginally reduce the voltage on the metal work relative to ground, but the metalwork in general should be at the same potential.
So I'd say probably no noticeable advantage.
Or did you mean use the electrode *instead* of the supplier's earth? In that case it just depends which fault you consider more likely, as in previous posts.
 
Or did you mean use the electrode *instead* of the supplier's earth?
No.

People are suggesting adding electrodes to TNC-S supplies - in case the neutral is lost.

I presume they are thinking that when the neutral is lost it would become TT but it wouldn't, would it?
 
I have seen where road works broke the neutral with TN-C-S, the problem in that case is anything which has a true earth will carry the neutral current, the damage was burnt earth wires, and in extremes it can rupture the gas pipe which then has a follow on result. However looking at the picture.
met-fire-jpg.119313
major burning seems to be the meter, so it looks far more like a faulty thread in the meter connections has resulted in the torque wrench showing correct torque, but the cables were not tight. The problem is once heated up likely the faulty thread has likely cured its self, and it looks as if the meter fitter did not tighten the screws fully.

I am sure thieves stock did steel the copper, what is in question was that the result, or was it a handy stock image?

With PME the M stands for multiple, and where multiple earth rods are used it is reasonable safe, TN-C-S means TN terraferma neutral combined then separated it does not mean there are multiple earth rods. When water and gas came in as metal to every house in practice those pipes were the earth electrodes even if we called it bonding, and with every house having these the fault current if the neutral is lost is not that high.

Where the problem lies is where one odd house has something bonded which will act as a good earth but other houses from the same transformer have little or nothing, now 500 amp can be directed to the one good earth, I have seen the results, a line of copper goblets laid down the path where the earth wire had been. Most would not have 4 earth rods one each corner of garden and earth tape buried 18 inches deep connecting them, only a radio ham is likely to go to those lengths. I could not measure as I could not get access far enough away to put in test spikes. But likely under one ohm.

Losing the neutral does mean 400 volt instead of 230 volt, but equipment should be designed to fail safe, there should be no fire resulting from the over voltage, fuses may blow, printed circuits may fry, but it should not cause a fire.

Only wires which should over heat are earth wires. Although if every house fitted an earth rod bonded to the installation earth it would likely cure the problem, it would have to be every house, not a random one or two, only way to ensure all rods are fitted together is for the DNO to fit them, in other words provide a PME supply not just a TN-C-S.

So come on lads, does that really look like lost neutral damage, or a faulty meter damage?

As a p.s. in the motor trade they also had problems using a torque wrench, the answer was torque to a low figure, check it is tight, then move the nut or bolt a set amount of degrees extra, this stopped the problem.
 
My point was that TN-C-S systems have already got earth electrodes attached to the neutral at various points.
 
Further down the article is a close up of a meter, it was assumed this was the meter from the burnt out meter box.
toasted meter.jpg

no damage at the terminals and some of the soot has been brushed off. Even if it is not the same meter the lowest point of fire damage in the MET and the conductor from the MET that runs across the top of the cut out and goes up out of the top left hand corner of the box.

So come on lads, does that really look like lost neutral damage, or a faulty meter damage?
and the other 70 homes that had been damaged by the "power surge", did they all have faulty meters ( before the event )
 
I presume they are thinking that when the neutral is lost it would become TT but it wouldn't, would it?
Of course not. It will still be TN-C-S even with an earth electrode, although with an open circuit PEN conductor it won't be pretty. However there is nothing inherently wrong with earth electrodes on TN-C-S systems - as I pointed out most of the world actually requires this!
 
That meter looks different to the one in the first picture.
 
My point was that TN-C-S systems have already got earth electrodes attached to the neutral at various points.

No, PME systems have electrodes attached at various points. The minimum for a TN-C-S supply is at the tranny.
 
Shame Westie isn't here, bless him.

I'm sure that ENWL ground their TN-C-S supplies more than once.
 

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