You need a smart meter

[Murdochcat]

I think we will eventually move away from it being as simple as night is one rate, and day is another.

Actually its more sinister than that. The goal is different pricing at all times of the day depending on usage - mainly to charge people more when they are cooking their dinners.

That's where all these SM's are heading - the marketing speak of giving YOU more control is pure rubbish as most people know which appliances use the most electricity & gas.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Actually its more sinister than that. The goal is different pricing at all times of the day depending on usage - mainly to charge people more when they are cooking their dinners.

...and when charging their cars.

When will people remember that smart meters are being fitted by order of the Government; not the suppliers?

 

[ericmark]

...and when charging their cars.

I believe car chargers need a connection to the DNO so they can be turned off without turning off whole house, so they don't need smart meters to turn them on/off.

It is the relay inside the smart meter I object to, too easy for wrong supply to be turned off. As to making the user aware of power being used, I have that now without a smart meter, I can see when my daughter had a shower, I assume that's the large spike, and yes I do wait until some power in the battery before I start a wash or dry cycle so on a good day I use no grid power from 9 am to 11 pm, the battery does not last through the night, but the idea of having to control minute by minute does not work, once I set dish washer, washing machine, tumble drier off, then they run until end of cycle. The tumble dryer since a heat pump type does not use that much, but it can run for some time, so weather can change during the cycle meaning it discharges my battery rather than use what I would otherwise export.

But there is a limit to how much I want to change my life style, day time TV might work out cheaper to evening TV, but I have not yet changed, and I want a cup of coffee in the morning, I don't want to wait until the sun has charged the battery a bit.

As to variable tariff v fixed, I remember my first mortgage, it was fixed, seem to remember around 16% which was good when I got it, they peaked at 18% I seem to remember, but when the mortgage rate dropped, I was stuck with it, and had to sell house to get a variable rate. However we were not shopping around for cheapest mortgage every year. With a variable rate how can you compare suppliers, simple you can't, so we will be back to old days of being stuck with one supplier for years even if paying over the odds as you can't compare so don't know paying over the odds.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The effect will be the E7 tariff will not be metered correctly as the signal changing to cheap rate will cease to exist and therefore not change over.

There are alternative sources of time, they could perhaps have used, such as MSF, GPS, or mobile data..

 

[Why Not Indeed]

I am sure you are quoting from something, but what?

The OP was quoting an email from So Energy. I got the same email and then about an hour later, a retraction:

You may have accidentally received an email from us regarding your electricity meter needing to be replaced.​

We do apologise for any inconvenience caused. Unless you have previously been contacted regarding the BBC RTS switch off, please kindly disregard our email.​

The retraction being "everybody needs a new meter" rather than "RTS is being switched off".

As the underlying longwave service isn't being shut down in March 2024 I can't believe this RTS shutdown would be saving much money. As with removing Test Match Special from longwave, I assume the idea is to degrade the service to the point where people stop using it, then shut it down "because nobody is using it".

 

[Rodders53]

There are alternative sources of time, they could perhaps have used, such as MSF, GPS, or mobile data..

Not when they invented the Radio Teleswitching system there wasn't (except, perhaps MSF which at the time was BT owned/operated and at Rugby). It was being researched from 1964 and came into full use in 1984!

As the underlying longwave service isn't being shut down in March 2024 I can't believe this RTS shutdown would be saving much money. As with removing Test Match Special from longwave, I assume the idea is to degrade the service to the point where people stop using it, then shut it down "because nobody is using it".

No the transmitters - especially Droitwich - have been pretty much 'end of life' since 2006 and AM transmission is extremely energy inefficient.
Note the BBC article states

Energy UK and other bodies are seeking to extend RTS provision until December 2025.

not that BBC especially desire the same.
AIUI Energy UK are picking up most of the energy tab for LW in the fees paid to BBC for Teleswitching (who then pay Arqiva for the service).

They are only keeping it going while they get the replacement smart meters (hopefully now with 4G in the South) installed.

My electric meter went faulty early this year. EON fitted a dumb meter because the computer said 'no' - presumably poor O2 2g/3g data here? Vodafone 4G is adequate, if not blisteringly fast.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

I assume the idea is to degrade the service to the point where people stop using it, then shut it down "because nobody is using it".

It was my understanding that the main justification for keeping a long wave broadcast station was the shipping forecast. Not sure exactly what replaces that these days.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Not when they invented the Radio Teleswitching system there wasn't (except, perhaps MSF which at the time was BT owned/operated and at Rugby). It was being researched from 1964 and came into full use in 1984!

Yes I know that, but the alternative sources of accurate time, are available now, should they want to use them.

I'm not sure what you might be suggesting came into full use in 1984, but I was receiving and writing software to decode MSF in 84. It was not long after that, that I was using GPS, for crude navigation.

 

[DiyNutJob]

I ignore the begs and threats. They go away until the next time.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you @Why Not Indeed @Rodders53 I have also heard there is a problem fitting smart meters in my area. It does not really worry me, I see no point in a smart meter as they are today, I can see some point in a split meter so the supplier can switch off non essential services, but this would mean major changes to how the house is wired, going back to old days well before my time when lights and power had different meters and it was illegal to use lighting supplies for power. Although it seemed it was common to do the ironing by plugging into lights.

It seems new EV charging points can be switched off remotely, but can't think of anything I use power for which could be realistically done by remote control, may be when my battery charges, but it only charges off solar anyway, or when my immersion heaters switches on, which again only switches on when there is surplus solar after the battery is fully charged.

As it is we load dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer but don't turn them on until surplus solar.

I have watched the Smart meter adds and they seem rather silly, they don't tell you how they will help the home owner, it will make the meter reader redundant, but how does that help me?

Yes I know that, but the alternative sources of accurate time, are available now, should they want to use them.

It seems to be the staggered switching which is so special. Until this post I had not realised the switch on of night rate was staggered. But reading the documents linked to, it seems this was the main point, and the operator could delay the switching on if the demand had not dropped.

However the smart meters only seem to have one outlet, there is no teleswitch to turn on extra loads at a set time. My big power uses dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer do have the ability to delay their start, but no option to connect to any trigger device so they can be remotely started, and seems no memory so can't even use a smart socket adaptor to turn them on, as once power is removed they do not auto restart.

As to the safety of items suddenly getting power not so sure, I know anything over 370 watt must auto stop, (552.1.2) but I have send back loads of angle grinders because they don't comply. I think most garden stuff you need to hold some leaver to make it go, dead mans handle sort of thing, but can one be sure all items are like that?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

It seems to be the staggered switching which is so special. Until this post I had not realised the switch on of night rate was staggered. But reading the documents linked to, it seems this was the main point, and the operator could delay the switching on if the demand had not dropped.

I would expect the individual switch on's to be also staggered over time, they would not want them all suddenly coming on at the same precise instant.

 

[Rodders53]

Yes I know that, but the alternative sources of accurate time, are available now, should they want to use them.

I'm not sure what you might be suggesting came into full use in 1984, but I was receiving and writing software to decode MSF in 84. It was not long after that, that I was using GPS, for crude navigation.

They have chosen to use smart metering via mobile data in South and UHF radio links in North.

1984 was around the time of the formal agreement or contract (it was signed in late 1983 https://www.bbceng.info/Eng_Inf/eng-inf-files/EngInf15.pdf page 9). It had been running as a test service for four years prior to that. I expect there was a lot of behind the scenes high level negotiation to be done to 'allow' that commercial use of a public service transmission.

You have to remember MSF was originally used (controlled by National Physical Labs) as a reference standard transmitted by BT at Rugby at that time I believe. I suspect there was either a lack of data capacity on the 60Hz system or it would have an unwanted impact on the use as a reference. (Albeit it was discontinued as a frequency standard in 1988, long after teleswitching was in use). There may even have been issues around a 'third party' controlling the data being sent to mean it was rejected as an option?

GPS would not allow the 'variable times control' that Teleswitching does either (and UK has never had - even now - its own UK Govt controlled GPS system).

 

[ericmark]

I am sure there are many ways today how data could be sent, the car radio keeps the clock correct, the weather station uses some signal from Germany, computers clearly use internet, and TV's use freeview or freesat to correct their clocks. But it is not simply keeping the clocks correct.

I remember my mothers care package, I used internet and a pet cam to see if OK, but the social services said the internet was not reliable enough, and used the phone line instead, and the monitor would auto cut the phone to all other phone sockets so it could send a message to call centre about mother, not that it was much better, when the door fell off to her toilet so she was trapped they phoned to say alarm activated but no idea why. I used camera and could hear mother shouting help, and camera in same room as their microphone so if I could hear her so should they.

But it is down to what is permitted. And how reliable. I can't get BBC radio broadcast in my house, which is why I have Nest Mini's so I can listen using the internet. Freeview is useless, even if we could get it, very limited programs from Moel-y-sant and it states this is because

The Moel y Sant (Powys, Wales) mast is a public service broadcasting (PSB) transmitter, it does not provide these commercial (COM) channels

so likely not allowed to be used for smart meters.

But radio 4 also likely a PSB?

But does it matter? Providers can offer services to make the Smart meter conversion more attractive. I think the word Smart is wrong, they have telemetry and this has been available for a very long time. That does not make them smart, smart to me means some sort of algorithm to work something out, like a TRV works out when to turn the heating on so room is warm for a set time.

It works something out, there may be some very smart bits of software that analyses the info sent by smart meters, but there is nothing smart about the meter its self.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You have to remember MSF was originally used (controlled by National Physical Labs)

That is correct, I exchanged a series of postal letters with them, when attempting to write software to decode the data - they were very helpful indeed, and quite enthusiastic about the idea.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You have to remember MSF was originally used (controlled by National Physical Labs) as a reference standard transmitted by BT at Rugby at that time I believe.

That is correct, I exchanged a series of postal letters with them, when attempting to write software to decode the data - they were very helpful indeed, and quite enthusiastic about the idea.

I suspect there was either a lack of data capacity on the 60Hz system or it would have an unwanted impact on the use as a reference. (Albeit it was discontinued as a frequency standard in 1988, long after teleswitching was in use).

I'm sure you meant 60Khz? The data fits/fitted perfectly, including checksums, there was even enough for a once per minute fast code 'croak', and the slow data. So far as I know, it remains a frequency standard, but perhaps you had in mind the 198/200Khz longwave signal, no longer being a standard?