Disgusting depending on your viewpoint

[AdamW]

Crikey, there is a whole lot to be mischievous with, in those two sentences.
'Scared stiff'
'Love of regular screenings'

Now we know A is true Blue -- all the way through.

Ever thought how ironic it is that when you are "scared stiff", everything south of the waist goes floppy?

 

[Damocles]

People catch diseases-any diseases- from people who have them already. So HIV has been polarised somewhat within groups which have sex amongst themselves. Given that some countries in the world are now at or approaching the point where the majority of people are infected, it may be that in some of these countries a statistical analysis such as that given by the transfusion service would show that only gays should be allowed to give blood.

 

[david and julie]

I understand the logic in what you are saying Damocles - however, what I would say is that during the past year I have done quite a lot of work with gay/bisexual men in relation to community based sexual health screening, many of which are from other Countries who are not able to 'express' their sexuality hence any kind of sexual activities with other men in their own Country is 'underground'. A classic example I can give to you are Asian muslim men - I have seen plenty of these men who are absolutely terrified of any member of their community or religion finding out what they're doing - and this is in this Country! - therefore I imagine the 'pockets' of HIV/STI's and other blood borne viruses in some of these other Countries must be huge (and may not be reported as homosexuality doesn't happen within Muslim states!!!!!!!!). Many Countries do not produce their HIV figures as they say they have no one with it!!!!
Even taking this situation out of the equation in third world Countries clean needles, equipment for operation, immunisations, blood transfusions etc are not routinely used - so this wouldn't be a safe either. Whenever we go away (out of Europe) I take new needles/syringes etc
just in case we are involved in an accident - however, if I needed a blood transfusion or blood products abroad I would seriously have to consider my options - hopefully I would be able to make it home to have this undertaken - although I appreciate this may not be possible.

 

[Damocles]

I might suspect that if these guys are as terrified as you suggest of being found out then their number of sexual partners is likely to be quite small. Abstinence may be a pretty stupid policy in the face of freely available partners but it is quite effective at stopping the diisease. So it might be that gay guys who perforce have little or no sex are not likely to catch it even though it might be widespread (even normal) in the general population.

It was purely bad luck that HIV became a gay disease. Strictly speaking it never was a gay disease at all. There have always been many more straight people with HIV than gay ones. It just happened that the disease first came to the attention of modern medicine in developed countries where it had become established in the gay community. The chance of catching it from straight sex with an infected individual is much the same as from gay sex.

Or possibly it was very good luck, because had it first become established amongst heterosexuals then very many more people might have been infected before the danger was understood.

 

[david and julie]

Whilst I agree re you're comment about abstinence and STI's/HIV - you really need to ask whether this is actually achievable? There is a lot of unprotected sex happening out there!
Of course the more partners you have the greater chance you have of contrating an STI/HIV but you could argue that any unprotected encounter is a risk it just depends on whether the person you're having sex with has an infection or not! I am personally aware of people who have picked up an infection(s) the first time they had unprotected sex! Many people also believe that if they have oral sex they won't catch infections (as in Bill Clintons 'I did not have sex with that woman!') but many STI's including HIV can be transmitted this way.
The only safe sex is no sex!!!

I do also remember the days when HIV was classed as a gay disease (I was involved with many HIV patients in the mid 80's). Globally HIV is more prevalent in the heterosexual communities (in view of Africa etc). However, more gay/bisexual men are infected in this Country than heterosexuals - imported HIV heterosexually in this Country is increasing dramatically.
In my experience despite condoms being free and freely available the vast majority of people don't like using them (especially men). It is going to take a massive education initiative regarding sex and relationship education (starting early in life) to empower the young to have the confidence to say no or to abstain. Unfortunately the media needs to take some responsibility for the decline of sexual morals - everthing you see on TV, in magazines, newspapers etc is very sexualised or has some kind of sexual innuendo.
Whats the answer, any comments?

 

[Damocles]

when HIV finally attracted official attention there was a massive advertising campaign here. It did not say do not have sex. It said be careful. It worked.

In some ways it worked too well. The subject has become unfashionable and heterosexuals rather started asking what the fuss was, because hardly anyone straight caught it except by some other reason. The campaign came before the disease had a chance to spread into the general heterosexual community.

Now it has become old news and rather unfashionable. I think it is very dangerous to go round telling people just not to have sex. They will not do this, you have to work with human nature and not against it. The original ads featured attractive sexually provocative models to get peoples attention but also to emphasise that you can have the fun and still be safe.

I fancy I read that there are no absolutely proveable cases of people catching HIV from oral sex, though the theoretical risk plainly exists. Risk is higher if you have any damaged skin which is then exposed to infected material. This obviously includes inside your mouth but is not exactly an especial risk of oral sex.

 

[david and julie]

I fancy I read that there are no absolutely proveable cases of people catching HIV from oral sex, though the theoretical risk plainly exists. Risk is higher if you have any damaged skin which is then exposed to infected material. This obviously includes inside your mouth but is not exactly an especial risk of oral sex.

Damocles can you give me the reference where it said there is no provable case re oral sex?

As I have personally been involved professionally with substantial numbers of gay men who claimed they contracted HIV from oral sex - How do they know this? Well, since their previous HIV test (incubation period having been taken into account) their only exposure risk had been oral sex and their result had been positive. They all told me that they weren't aware of any sores, bleeding gums, hadn't brushed their teeth beforehand etc
Any GUM Consultant will tell you that the risks of HIV from oral sex although lower than unprotected sex are definitely real

In Greater Manchester since 2000 we have seen a 500% increase in Syphilis, many Cities across the Country have also seen outbreaks of this infection as well - overwhelmingly the mode of transmission for this infection has been oral sex

It is unfortunate as in the early days of HIV/AIDS the information given to patients was that oral sex was ok - however, as we began to know more about the infection this information has now changed - the public however, still remember the 1980's campaigns and the information that was given out at that time. I'm not saying that the risk is the same as unprotected sex cos it isn't but as I said in my previous post a rsik is still a risk even if only one person becomes infected.

I never tell anyone what to do in relation to their sexual behaviour/activity - I just give them the facts and allow them to make their own informed choices hopefully enabling them to have a happy and safe sex life - an exception to this may be when I'm dealing with very young people when I will discuss empowerment re saying no and also explore the possibility of abstinence until they are 'ready' psychologically to have sex.

 

[kendor]

there was a lot of rumours around the early days such as catching it from spit or a toilet seat etc

Although statistics are a source of information they can be misleading if interpreted wrongly, The only sure way is through clinical trial but for lack of volunteers i don't think that'll happen

 

[AdamW]

there was a lot of rumours around the early days such as catching it from spit or a toilet seat etc

Does anyone know if sailors are still subjected to "the red toilet"? I saw on a WW2 documentary that sailors who caught something on shore leave would have to use a toilet designated for those with the clap, in order to prevent it spreading (I wonder if this is the so-called "clap trap" that many of us refer to when someone talks rubbish?)

 

[david and julie]

there was a lot of rumours around the early days such as catching it from spit or a toilet seat etc

Although statistics are a source of information they can be misleading if interpreted wrongly, The only sure way is through clinical trial but for lack of volunteers i don't think that'll happen

I do remember during the mid 80's that we had people queuing down the corridors wanting HIV tests because of such incidents - a classic one I remember well was when a lady said she thought she'd contacted HIV from a burger at a well known outlet!!!!!

Over the years they have undertaken randomised anonymous testing at many GUM and other venues, such as ante natal clinics - information is posted on walls and leaflets are given to patients, it is usually undertaken as an 'opt out' if you don't want it rather the doctor or nurse asking everyone if they want to do it. Once the blood has been used for the requested testing it is then stripped of all identity in the laboratory - the only 'identifiables' they use is an area eg Greater Manchester, sex and possibly an age grouping - there is no way that the patient can be identifyed - although many come along to there next visit asking 'what there result was'

No Adam, I don't know whether sailors are subjected to the 'red toilet' now or not - but in WW2 sailors brought back syphilis from their exploits with Prostitutes whilst abroad to their wives and girlfriends - syphilis was a massive problem in this Country post WW2 - Many babies were born with Syphilis at that time - antenatal screening for syphilis now ensures that if women attend for antenatal care and they do have syphilis they can be treated and their baby will be ok

It is also amazing how many people actually believe they can catch an STI from a toilet seat - which is of course rubbish! I think it stems from times gone by - I remember that as a child I was told never to sit on other peoples toilet seat - when I asked why I was told it was 'because of germs'!!!

Another classic thing that men say when they come to GUM is:
'You're not going to put the umbrella down my **** are you?'

Yet another old wives tale! It can take ages to reassurance them that no needles or 'umbrellas' are going to be used on their genitals as they are so wound up about it - most of the information has been given to them by friends who've never attended a clinic!

Julie

 

[hotncold]

what a load of old bull!

 

[2scoops0406]

what a load of old bull!

Which bit ?

 

[Damocles]

Well if you're past it i guess it doesn't matter to you The rest of us still take a personal interest in this sort of thing.

The last time I heard the bit about oral sex was a lot more recent than the 80s, but I do not remember whether it was a magazine article or tv program. One or the other. I remember one observation was that as most people did quite a lot of things it was very difficult to say exactly which had caused them the problem.

I think there was also some mention of cases of people who had been exposed to such a risk repeatedly yet had not caught it.

Then there was the glorious case of the people who are naturally immune. I think someone demonstrated that the same genes which protected your ancestors against the black death also protect against HIV.

 

[hotncold]

the whole friggin' lot

 

[hotncold]

past it......I'm all 4 it!