Economy 7

[hard-work]

I attended some of the Fully Charged talks at Silverstone. The idea was clear, that if there is too much electricity used the grid can dump it free into your Mixergy cylinder at will. They will also give cut price (E7) electricity by the hour, or even outside E7s hours. The user can by-pass the grid at any time of course.

The National Grid man on the stage said that they do not need any more power generation to cope with the country moving over 100% to EVs. Just one refinery consumes the level of electricity as Leicester and Coventry combined. This refining electricity usage will decline rapidly and be transferred over to EV charging. The use of grid storage in battery banks, located where the demand is to reduce line losses, will eliminate the need for new peak power generators, as Tesla proved in the USA. If a grid battery storage facility is exhausted in a half hour just after say Coronation St on TV, it has done its job, then it can be charged up overnight when demand overall drops sharply. One of the aims is to keep power generators running as long as possible as this makes it more efficient for power stations. As been mentioned, it is very inefficient to start-stop such large machines. The grid want to have more electricity usage during the night to balance the grid's generation, which increases efficiency, keeping generators running longer.

BTW, the UK has 4 types of the pumped on demand Dinorwig power stations, two in Wales and two in Scotland.

 

[hard-work]

No, I haven't watched the video - like Simon, I have better things to do with my time,

Well do not comment on matters you know sweet nothing about.

 

[JohnD]

The use of grid storage in battery banks

I look forward to the days when MWh of storage batteries cost so little that their cost need not even be mentioned.

 

[hard-work]

A large enough Mixergy cylinder can be used for domestic storage as for UFH. A UFH take off coil can be inside the fresh water cylinder for UFH usage. A DHW blending valve can be on the DHW outlet.

 

[JohnD]

the cost of dhw in a typical house is negligible.

Can the same be said for the products you've been plugging?

 

[hard-work]

I look forward to the days when MWh of storage batteries cost so little that their cost need not even be mentioned.

I try to keep abreast of battery advances. The advances in the labs all around the world is quite amazing. It is stabilizing them, getting them cheap enough and on the market that is the delay. That is long lead time from the scientists in the labs saying we have it, now going and make them. In 10 years battery storage density will be around 4 times what we have now, and much cheaper. That means, say a Tesla that now has a 330 miles range, with a battery change after say 10-15 years could run for 1,130 miles on one charge. Or keep it 330 miles range with a smaller cheaper battery set and less weight. A car only car can be transformed with a simple battery set change.

Having these new high density batteries, a PowerWall battery means that gas may be redundant in new highly insulated homes, or just homes in general.

I know some new home self builders who have made their homes all electric, by transferring the cost of full UFH, boilers and all the rest to insulation, and simple cheap electric heaters. They eliminate the rental costs of gas meters and save space as well. All that gas and heating equipment buys a lot of insulation. The cost of electricity to heat DHW and CH is then overall lower than gas. That is now, using a high density PowerWall when they emerge, gas will be redundant in domestic homes for sure - a no-brainer.

 

[bernardgreen]

It is stabilizing them, getting them cheap enough and on the market that is the delay.

And finding ways to ensure they are safe. Boeing 787 Dreamliners were grounded in 2013 after a battery fire destroyed an aircraft on the ground.

December last year United Airlines flight 915 had an battery overheat.... A single cell over heated ( it is claimed ) but without causing a chain reaction of ajacent cells over heating.

https://www.flightlevel360.net/single-post/United-787-Battery-Issues-2017

One source is PowerWalls means that gas may be redundant in new highly insulated homes.

Comments from senior Cadent staff have mentioned that some new deveopments will not be supplied with gas as a means to reduce gas consumption

 

[hard-work]

the cost of dhw in a typical house is negligible.

Can the same be said for the products you've been plugging?

I am not plugging anything, I informed all of a new cylinder in its operation, which it is despite others failing to understand its operation, which is cheaper on DHW - Hundreds are on test as an electricity dumping medium when too much is produced.

DHW cost is not negligible. Look the price of the energy hypes in the past 10 years - it does not get cheaper, and I have never experienced a drop in energy charges. This technology can be transferred to CH energy storage quite easily. Being an engineer I can see that.

 

[hard-work]

And finding ways to ensure they are safe. Boeing 787 Dreamliners were grounded in 2013 after a battery fire destroyed an aircraft on the ground.

Bernard, ultra safe batteries are in the labs and have been demonstrated. What we have now and what we will have in 5 to 10 years time will be very different.

 

[hard-work]

Comments from senior Cadent staff have mentioned that some new deveopments will not be supplied with gas as a means to reduce gas consumption

Major developers will eliminate gas at every opportunity as well to reduce build costs. Few new blocks of flats have gas in them.

 

[SimonH2]

You have poor comprehension. I said a National Grid man. I do not have time to trawl through all the Fully Charged vids just for you, and they have been going for about 7 years or so.

So, that would be a "no I can't back up my claims" then

You can't gasp the big picture for sure. Try harder you appear brighter than the other two.

I can grasp the big picture. The difference is that my glasses have clear glass, not rose (or should that be green ?) tinted glass

Major developers will eliminate gas at every opportunity as well to reduce build costs. Few new blocks of flats have gas in them.

That's not to do with economics of fuel use, it's down to developers working on the "how can we shave 2d off the build cost" of the shoe boxes that they have no intension of living in.
Not long ago my mother was looking at a new build, and being shown round the developer (in this case, a one off as he owned the land and was capitalising it) was going on about all these "great features" - like the slab of insulation under the (unheated) concrete ground floor, the insulation in the walls, the insulation in the roof, the glued down (aka can't lift to maintain the services) flooring on teh other floors, ... Every single one of those was the bare minimum needed for building regs and not a penny more - no option for gas cooking, no option for wired phones or networking, not even a doorbell or wiring for it, and so on.

 

[SimonH2]

Well do not comment on matters you know sweet nothing about.

Actually, you'll find (if you care to read what he writes) that he is knowledgeable on a wide range of matters. That you have failed to explain what is so "revolutionary" about these supposedly breakthrough cylinders is not his problem.

I am not plugging anything, I informed all of a new cylinder in its operation

No, it is not new, it's an old idea with a couple of new tweaks. Really, it is ancient - lets look at what it offers :

• Storage of hot water - check
• Electrically heated - check
• Heated by "cheap" electricity - check

That's been around for (at least) half a century. The ONLY thing that is even remotely new about it is the remote control feature, and it's debatable if even that is new since radio teleswitches for E7 (and similar) tariffs have been around for a long long time (many decades) and have been used for exactly what you describe (adding load to the grid as a control mechanism). So really, the only new feature of this is "something existing but improved by adding internet and a smart phone app" - sound familiar ? And that doesn't actually work fully because there isn't a mechanism for it (the "free" lecky), and won't be for an indeterminate timeframe.

And for something you are not plugging, you are doing a mighty hard sell on it People round here have been around long enough to spot snake oil when it's being peddled. There's a guy over in the plumbing section for whom every problem can be solved with a thermal store, and similarly, a number of plumbers in there for whom a thermal store cannot ever be a solution for anyone as only a combi fits that bill. Like him, people in here will quickly be learning to tune out from your sales pitches.

 

[JohnD]

DHW cost is not negligible.

I know the exact cost of my gas usage in summer when the CH is out of use.

It is negligible.

What's yours?

 

[hard-work]

Mine is not negligible at all. And it keeps rising.

 

[hard-work]

So, that would be a "no I can't back up my claims" then

No. Look it up yourself, as I do not tell lies. If you were well up on these matters, which you are not, you would know that.

It is to do with economics of fuel use, not down to developers working on the "how can we shave 2d off the build cost". It has to be economical enough to run to sell the house. Selling points of electrical heating is that few need any annual servicing.