EV are they worth it?

[Avocet]

Quit complaining. Some of us have had 20mph for years and we still managed. You really need to calm that budding race driver in you down. Go play instead with electric cables, there's a good chap.

What's 20 MPH got to do with anything? The speed limit in towns was 2 MPH under the "Red Flag Act", and 4 MPH out of town.

 

[Avocet]

at Glastonbury Festival 2022, a bargain, now over £100 to fill my tank with diesel, there were advising

Now the only guy I know with an electric van has a milk round of 64 miles and the van rated at 120 miles range, but he still runs out of charge from time to time. So in real terms they are saying arrive with a fully charged car.

But I remember the days of carrying a spare gallon of petrol, fuel gauges were not the best, so suppose you could carry one of these View attachment 273434 and a gallon of petrol like any good boy scout.

The experience with an e-bike however was nothing shown between 1/3 charged and empty, cruised around a corner to Oh dear need to peddle rest of way home, would not have wanted to stay on that corner charging battery up.

You'd need a good (and very long) book too, so that you could read it whilst waiting for that little single phase genny to put enough juice back in your battery!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'm not much into conspiracy theories, to be honest. I think some of our rail network isn't electrified, simply because none of it was, and bit-by-bit, we've been spending the money to electrify it, but haven't done all of it yet. I don't think there's anything more sinister than that involved. Just successive governments failing to invest in the infrastructure.

I think it's a combination of economics and politics. Post WWII the government of the day wanted to electrify, and the Sheffield-Woodhead-Manchester route (now closed) was actually the pilot project for a network-wide electrification. As a country we simply couldn't afford it at the time, and we ended up with the 1955 Modernisation Plan which was intended to bring the railway system up to date, introducing diesel engines to replace steam as a stop gap before going to full electrification. The aim was to help eliminate BR's financial deficit by 1962...

As part of this plan it was envisaged that the principal main lines, in the Eastern Region, Kent, and the London-Birmingham-Central Scotland corridor with Glasgow to Edinburgh trunk services electrified as well. In the end we got London to Crewe, the Glasgow area electrics and London to Clacton as the first stage whilst everything else was dieselised, because siuccessive governments either couldn't afford it (or in the case of some Tory administrations wouldn't afford it). We still have this mess today, with the debacle of Northern Powerhouse Rail being a primary example of Treasury parsimony

Likewise, the Cumbrian mine isn't any kind of anti-Welsh thing (well, I don't think it is, at any rate), I think it's just that suitable coking coal is plentiful in that part of Cumbria. There's nothing to stop the Welsh Assembly incentivising coal mines in Wales! (Whether or not it's a good idea to have ANY more coal mines, is a separate debate, of course).

I thought the Cumbrian coal was primarily wanted for specialised steel production in Sheffield. Like it or not we are dependent on steel for some items (e.g building frameworks), and steel production requires carbon in the form of coking coal. At least one source states that 85% of the coal mined in Cumbria would be exported, generating much needed export earnings as well as improved employment prospects in an arae which has been in industrial decline since the closure of the steel industry (Workington rolling mills in particular) and the downturn in shipbuilding (Barrow-in-Furness) from the 1970s onwards. Low-paid seasonal tourism jobs can never replace properly paid employment. This becomes an even hotter topic when you realise that 40% of the UK's coking coal currently comes from Russia, the balance being imported from Australia and North America. Shipping all this coal around generates a massive amount of carbon dioxide, one estimate putting the UK's cvarbon footprint for importing coal at 1.28 billion tonnes a year, which could be drastically reduced if we produced coal in the UK. The size iof thge issue is highlighted in this article from Reuters

 

[Avocet]

I think it's a combination of economics and politics. Post WWII the government of the day wanted to electrify, and the Sheffield-Woodhead-Manchester route (now closed) was actually the pilot project for a network-wide electrification. As a country we simply couldn't afford it at the time, and we ended up with the 1955 Modernisation Plan which was intended to bring the railway system up to date, introducing diesel engines to replace steam as a stop gap before going to full electrification. The aim was to help eliminate BR's financial deficit by 1962...

As part of this plan it was envisaged that the principal main lines, in the Eastern Region, Kent, and the London-Birmingham-Central Scotland corridor with Glasgow to Edinburgh trunk services electrified as well. In the end we got London to Crewe, the Glasgow area electrics and London to Clacton as the first stage whilst everything else was dieselised, because siuccessive governments either couldn't afford it (or in the case of some Tory administrations wouldn't afford it). We still have this mess today, with the debacle of Northern Powerhouse Rail being a primary example of Treasury parsimony


I thought the Cumbrian coal was primarily wanted for specialised steel production in Sheffield. Like it or not we are dependent on steel for some items (e.g building frameworks), and steel production requires carbon in the form of coking coal. At least one source states that 85% of the coal mined in Cumbria would be exported, generating much needed export earnings as well as improved employment prospects in an arae which has been in industrial decline since the closure of the steel industry (Workington rolling mills in particular) and the downturn in shipbuilding (Barrow-in-Furness) from the 1970s onwards. Low-paid seasonal tourism jobs can never replace properly paid employment. This becomes an even hotter topic when you realise that 40% of the UK's coking coal currently comes from Russia, the balance being imported from Australia and North America. Shipping all this coal around generates a massive amount of carbon dioxide, one estimate putting the UK's cvarbon footprint for importing coal at 1.28 billion tonnes a year, which could be drastically reduced if we produced coal in the UK. The size iof thge issue is highlighted in this article from Reuters

The coal mine issue is a hot topic up here, as you might imagine. I'm only about 6 miles from the proposed site and have very mixed feelings about it myself. On the one hand, it would be fantastic to see some employment return to an area that, as you say, has been on a downward spiral since the coal mines closed in 1986. Even the Pound shops are boarded-up here! It would also, of course, be good if it went to British steel plants, creating more jobs, reducing dependence on imports and, as you say, transportation CO2. Reduction of dependency on Russia would be icing on the cake.

However, something doesn't add up. I too, have seen figures of 85% export. The company itself, in its own brochure, doesn't make any attempt to hide the fact that it will be taken by rail to Redcar and loaded on to ships. In which case, there obviously won't be a reduction in shipping CO2, but it will be on "our tab", so to speak. And, of course, we'll still be importing steel from elsewhere, so the gains aren't quite as big as made out.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

You must have been fed by The Sun or something. A small force out of a total of 200k troops was going to take a capital city? This is extremely fanciful even for the complete clueless. Same goes with your other information. So, when do you expect putin to fold and russia to collapse, before the winter?

Unlike you I don't get my economic geography from the Dandy nor my information on the Ukraine war from the Beano. I tend to draw my information from places such as the United Services Institute bulletins, talks by Lord Richard Dannet, articles and presentations by Prof. Michael Clarke (of Kings College. London) along with commentaries by Dr. Mark Felton, retired Air Vice Marshall Sean Bell, and other reliable, intelligent, informed sources. If necessary I can supply links, but it would be utterly pointless in your case because you live in your own little world where reality seemingly has no place

As it happens on day 1 the Russians put their airborne special forces into Hostomel, a large airport approximately 24km from Kyiv, attempting a coupe de main. They actually succeeded in pushing the Ukrainian forces out from their base there. The idea was primarily to provide a forward operating base from which they could launch strikes into Kyiv, the intention being to assassinate President Zelensky and take over the government of Ukraine whilst awaiting a supply convoy coming down the road from the border. Amongst that convoy were over 250 pieces of equipment and more than 1,500 of the "best fighters of the Chechen Republic" according to Ukrainian Intellegence (source: elements of the FSB who opposed the invasion).Unfortunately the Russians completely misread the feeling of the Ukrainian people, they failed to gain air superiority early on (and still haven't), and they completely underestimated the strength of Ukrainian resistance both at Hostomel and in the area between the border and Kyiv. As an American former colleague would have said, it was a complete and utter clusterf***

 

[norseman]

They are indisputably "better for the planet" in some ways, but cause damage in others. I don't think many people are daft enough to believe that they are "amazing planet-saving devices", just another step along the road towards something that does less damage. If you have a better idea, let's hear it!

'Oh don't you believe it !
As a confirmed cynic it's my experience that a surprisingly high proportion of seemingly intelligent Joe Public are easily taken in by clever propaganda.
You only have to look back at history

nb. no I don't have a solution either, but at my age ...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

However, something doesn't add up. I too, have seen figures of 85% export. The company itself, in its own brochure, doesn't make any attempt to hide the fact that it will be taken by rail to Redcar and loaded on to ships. In which case, there obviously won't be a reduction in shipping CO2, but it will be on "our tab", so to speak. And, of course, we'll still be importing steel from elsewhere, so the gains aren't quite as big as made out.

I think they would have to use Redcar as it is now probably the only port in the north of England capable of handling bulk coal - Redcar port currently handles coal for both Redcar steelworks and the various Sheffield works (stainless steel, specialised steels and of course firms like Forgemasters). Whitehaven is a bit on the small side for 50k tonne bulk cargo carriers and surely Workington lost its' facilities when steel production ended there in 1974 with the closure of the last two Bessemer converters? In terms of steel being imported, that will always be the case. This country ceased to be a major producer of tool and high speed steels in the 1980s and we never really developed much of a powdered steel production capability - so m uch of that has been imported. mainly from Sweden, Germany and Austria for 40 years or more. On the bulk products side Mossbay could only ever roll 40 metre lengths of rail - when that closed (2006?) the work was transferred to Hayange in eastern France, which could roll 80 metre lengths. According to my brother (a retired steel metallurgist) the rumour now is that the French will probably lose that work to the Huta Katowice works in Poland before too long, simply because the Polish earn a fraction of their West European counterparts do. Of course, if we were still in the EC this might be less of an issue...

 

[Avocet]

Unlike you I don't get my economic geography from the Dandy nor my information on the Ukraine war from the Beano. I tend to draw my information from places such as the United Services Institute bulletins, talks by Lord Richard Dannet, articles and presentations by Prof. Michael Clarke (of Kings College. London) along with commentaries by Dr. Mark Felton, retired Air Vice Marshall Sean Bell, and other reliable, intelligent, informed sources. If necessary I can supply links, but it would be utterly pointless in your case because you live in your own little world where reality seemingly has no place

As it happens on day 1 the Russians put their airborne special forces into Hostomel, a large airport approximately 24km from Kyiv, attempting a coupe de main. They actually succeeded in pushing the Ukrainian forces out from their base there. The idea was primarily to provide a forward operating base from which they could launch strikes into Kyiv, the intention being to assassinate President Zelensky and take over the government of Ukraine whilst awaiting a supply convoy coming down the road from the border. Amongst that convoy were over 250 pieces of equipment and more than 1,500 of the "best fighters of the Chechen Republic" according to Ukrainian Intellegence (source: elements of the FSB who opposed the invasion).Unfortunately the Russians completely misread the feeling of the Ukrainian people, they failed to gain air superiority early on (and still haven't), and they completely underestimated the strength of Ukrainian resistance both at Hostomel and in the area between the border and Kyiv. As an American former colleague would have said, it was a complete and utter clusterf***

Oh... "experts", you mean...

 

[Avocet]

'Oh don't you believe it !
As a confirmed cynic it's my experience that a surprisingly high proportion of seemingly intelligent Joe Public are easily taken in by clever propaganda.
You only have to look back at history

nb. no I don't have a solution either, but at my age ...

Meh... I work in the car industry, so I tend to get data from a variety of sources and I'm as keen to get to the truth as anyone. There's at least as much "clever propagnda" against EVs, put out by organisations with vested interests in maintaining the status quo (such as "Big oil"). The car manufacturers themselves are not pushing EVs particularly hard. They're being forced that way by public opinion and legislation. They'd rather make what they've been making for a century now. There's not much money in an EV (despite the high price tag) and there's a lot of risk.

 

[Avocet]

I think they would have to use Redcar as it is now probably the only port in the north of England capable of handling bulk coal - Redcar port currently handles coal for both Redcar steelworks and the various Sheffield works. Whitehaven is a bit on the small side for 50k tonne bulk cargo carriers and surely Workington lost its' facilities when steel production ended there in 1974 with the closure of the last two Bessemer converters? In terms of steel being imported, that will always be the case. For example Mossbay could only ever roll 40 metre lengths of rail - when that closed (2006?) they transferred the work to Hayange in eastern France, which could roll 80 metre lengths. The rumour is that the French will probably lose that work to the Huta Katowice works in Poland before too long, simply because the Polish earn a fraction of their West European counterparts.

Yes indeed. Whitehaven is tiny. Workington has a bigger port, but nothing like big enough to take the ships that Redcar can. I think about 12,000 tonnes and 140m long is maximum for Workington. However, that's not the point. If it goes to ANY port n the UK, it's obviously not for domestic consumption, it's for export.

And yes, the rail rolling mill in Workington is now dead. It was scheduled to be closed earlier, but thanks to the Hatfield crash, it got a new lease of life for a few years. They were working day and night! The rail lengths story is true (and bizarre). The restriction on the length was because the roads here are too twisty to be able to move anything longer...
...despite the fact that the steel mill bloody straddles a railway line! For some utterly lunatic reason, everything the plant made, was shipped by road - even though it was obviously going to end up getting used on a railway!
We do have high quality haematite here too - plenty of still workable ore. In fact, my house is built over an old iron mine, but the national Park chaps would get a bit uppity about us extracting it these days...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Meh... I work in the car industry...

There are days when I think it might have been better to go to Loughborough (college) than do what I eventually did for a living. But then, seeing the way the UK motor industry subsequently went in the 70s and 80s, maybe it wasn't a wrong choice after all!

And yes, the rail rolling mill in Workington is now dead.

Yes, we did the Cumbrian coastal rail route a few years back (maybe 2007/8?) and they were ripping what was left of the works to pieces at the time. Surprising what you said about them taking the stuff out by road, though, but that said having seen bar stock rolling at Castle Works in Newport, to go from 40 metres to 80 metres would surely have required a much longer building? Not sure, but investment in the UK steel industry more or less dried up in the 1970s from what I can gather, so fat chance of that ever happening

 

[ktuludays]

They are indisputably "better for the planet" in some ways, but cause damage in others. I don't think many people are daft enough to believe that they are "amazing planet-saving devices", just another step along the road towards something that does less damage. If you have a better idea, let's hear it!

Bicycles

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Bicycles

Just a question - how do I carry a 6ft spirit level whilst riding a bike? Please don't answer "carefully"...

 

[Avocet]

Bicycles

Work 20 miles away. Kids aged 2 and 4 need to be dropped off at nursery about 2/3 of the way there. Need to get as week's shopping for a family of 4 on the way back that evening, and then pick kids up...

Go...

 

[Avocet]

Just a question - how do I carry a 6ft spirit level whilst riding a bike? Please don't answer "carefully"...

Actually, my dad, in his youth, would regularly cycle through the Mersey tunnel with a pair of extension ladders tied to his crossbar and a bag of tools over his shoulder! (Said it was a powerful incentive to save up for a car...)