EV are they worth it?

[Deleted member 174758]

So, what you are saying is that the 9 fold increase in india's gas/oil (can't remember which) import is bunk because russia can't get the stuff to them?

No, I didn't say that, but India is not yet a massive user of gas or oil in comparison to, say, Germany. A 9 fold increase when you are starting from a low initial figure is not really that substantial. All India has done is to reduce the volumes of tankered oil they take from the Gulf and Africa (partly becsuse Russia offered the oil at well below market prices) - if they wanted to import a lot more from Russia (i.e substantially increase their annual consumption, by say 40%) they are facing either the prospect of having to significantly increase the size of their port facilities or build pipelines across the highest mountain range in the world and half of Russia

Deals of similar and greater proportions with china would be the same. Essentially, what you are implying is that these countries are dealing in hot air. I find this hard to believe.

Yes, well, you seem to have a lot of difficulties with a lot of things. Russia's problem is that the vast majority of its' gas and oil pipeline infrastructure is west of the Urals and in the main feeds through Europe. At present that network is still in use, if only partially (i.e. at reduced levels) but the day is coming when that method of exporting oil (in particular) and using mainly European port facilities to load tankers will come to an end

If super tankers don't fit, no law says mini tankers can't be used.

I think we are now getting into fantasy land. Before you can use any tankers you need a pipeline system to your ice-free ports, the storage facilities at those ports and the ports themselves to be capable of handling large tankers. Russia lacks these essential requisites. It also lacks a tanker fleet big enough to transport all of, say, China's requirements (it has the natural resources, but that's about all). Mini tankers? Well, they had better start building them soon if they want to export more. It is becoming ever more difficult to insure tankers carrying Russian oil, so they are going to have to start owning and insuring their own fleet. Should only take 10 years or so. Just remember, all this infrastructure we are talking about takes years to develop - much of it it can't be bought off the shelf, like you would an SDS drill

Whilst it would be feasible to build pipelines from the Russian Far East gas fields to China, laying pipeline over melting permafrost presents many challenges and isn't a wiggle your nose and it happens sort of job (as Samantha might say), and development of those fields is currently at a standstill following the withdrawal of Haliburton and others from gas and oil field exploration/development in Russia. In any case, even were those fields fully developed, they would still be too small to supply more than a part of China's current needs let alone its' projected usage

For all you know, russia could have strategic secret underground pipelines crisscrossing the entire country. This could explain why the war in ukraine is done at an extra leisurely pace.

Now you really have gone off at the deep end. Ever heard of satellites? Even Google Earth has coverage of Russia and the massive scar left across a country by laying a pipeline is easily visible from space. So just how could the Russians build a network without the west knowing?

And "leisurely pace" is not how wars are ever conducted. The Russians made an absolute fist of trying to take Kyiv, and suffered ridiculously high casualties in men and materials for the poor gains they did make. Now in the second phase of the war they are making slow gains at the cost, again, of high casualties, and they are having to put older, dumber equipment into the front line to try and make good their losses. All this against a military, which on paper they should have crushed within a month. Financially the only thing keeping them afloat, especially in view of today's news thatbtheyvare now officially a defaulter nation, is the increase in the price of oil. When Europe finally cures its' addiction to Russian gas they will be up a creek with no money to build the infrastructure they need to deliver gas and oil to China and India. At that point their economy ges out the window for decades

But what has this all got to do with the price of sprouts?

 

[Avocet]

No, I didn't say that, but India is not yet a massive user of gas or oil in comparison to, say, Germany. A 9 fold increase when you are starting from a low initial figure is not really that substantial. All India has done is to reduce the volumes of tankered oil they take from the Gulf and Africa (partly becsuse Russia offered the oil at well below market prices) - if they wanted to import a lot more from Russia (i.e substantially increase their annual consumption, by say 40%) they are facing either the prospect of having to significantly increase the size of their port facilities or build pipelines across the highest mountain range in the world and half of Russia


Yes, well, you seem to have a lot of difficulties with a lot of things. Russia's problem is that the vast majority of its' gas and oil pipeline infrastructure is west of the Urals and in the main feeds through Europe. At present that network is still in use, if only partially (i.e. at reduced levels) but the day is coming when that method of exporting oil (in particular) and using mainly European port facilities to load tankers will come to an end


I think we are now getting into fantasy land. Before you can use any tankers you need a pipeline system to your ice-free ports, the storage facilities at those ports and the ports themselves to be capable of handling large tankers. Russia lacks these essential requisites. It also lacks a tanker fleet big enough to transport all of, say, China's requirements (it has the natural resources, but that's about all). Mini tankers? Well, they had better start building them soon if they want to export more. It is becoming ever more difficult to insure tankers carrying Russian oil, so they are going to have to start owning and insuring their own fleet. Should only take 10 years or so. Just remember, all this infrastructure we are talking about takes years to develop - much of it it can't be bought off the shelf, like you would an SDS drill

Whilst it would be feasible to build pipelines from the Russian Far East gas fields to China, laying pipeline over melting permafrost presents many challenges and isn't a wiggle your nose and it happens sort of job (as Samantha might say), and development of those fields is currently at a standstill following the withdrawal of Haliburton and others from gas and oil field exploration/development in Russia. In any case, even were those fields fully developed, they would still be too small to supply more than a part of China's current needs let alone its' projected usage


Now you really have gone off at the deep end. Ever heard of satellites? Even Google Earth has coverage of Russia and the massive scar left across a country by laying a pipeline is easily visible from space. So just how could the Russians build a network without the west knowing?

And "leisurely pace" is not how wars are ever conducted. The Russians made an absolute fist of trying to take Kyiv, and suffered ridiculously high casualties in men and materials for the poor gains they did make. Now in the second phase of the war they are making slow gains at the cost, again, of high casualties, and they are having to put older, dumber equipment into the front line to try and make good their losses. All this against a military, which on paper they should have crushed within a month. Financially the only thing keeping them afloat, especially in view of today's news thatbtheyvare now officially a defaulter nation, is the increase in the price of oil. When Europe finally cures its' addiction to Russian gas they will be up a creek with no money to build the infrastructure they need to deliver gas and oil to China and India. At that point their economy ges out the window for decades

But what has this all got to do with the price if sprouts?

That makes a lot of sense. Even from school history lessons, I can remember that for a few hundred years at least, the quest for an ice-free port has been a mainstay of Russia's foreign policy. I suspect that the annexation of Crimea and the current invasion (sorry, "special military operation" ) are an attempt to secure themselves just such a port on the Black Sea. It wouldn't surprise me, if the current conflict ends with Ukraine ceding a narrow strip of territory along its Eastern border, allowing Russia a corridor to Crimea and the Black Sea.

 

[DiyNutJob]

The Russians made an absolute fist of trying to take Kyiv

You must have been fed by The Sun or something. A small force out of a total of 200k troops was going to take a capital city? This is extremely fanciful even for the complete clueless. Same goes with your other information. So, when do you expect putin to fold and russia to collapse, before the winter?

 

[DiyNutJob]

It wouldn't surprise me, if the current conflict ends with Ukraine ceding a narrow strip of territory along its Eastern border, allowing Russia a corridor to Crimea and the Black Sea.

I would be very surprised if they don't lose the entire coast. That's unlikely to be completed this year. Odessa is well defended and well prepared. The russians said they like the city a lot and don't want to ruin it. So, starving them out would take a while.

I don't see Kyiv surrendering. They will fight until the last ukrainian or until the money flow stops from the west. Whether the weapons flow or not makes no difference.

 

[Avocet]

I would be very surprised if they don't lose the entire coast. That's unlikely to be completed this year. Odessa is well defended and well prepared. The russians said they like the city a lot and don't want to ruin it. So, starving them out would take a while.

I don't see Kyiv surrendering. They will fight until the last ukrainian or until the money flow stops from the west. Whether the weapons flow or not makes no difference.

I think you'll find that the flow of weapons will make quite a big difference, actually...

 

[norseman]

Getting back to the original thread I see that there are proposals to tax/apply VED to these cars on a 'by the mile' basis.
No surprise there & quite possible I would have thought, given today's in-car trackers & 5G technology.

 

[Avocet]

Getting back to the original thread I see that there are proposals to tax/apply VED to these cars on a 'by the mile' basis.
No surprise there & quite possible I would have thought, given today's in-car trackers & 5G technology.

Yes, I see this as being inevitable - either by number plate recognition, by smart chargers, or by "black boxes" (or a combination). The government can't afford to lose the £40 billion revenue they currently fleece motorists for. I'm sure incentives for low-carbon vehicles will carry on for a few years yet, though. I've already missed the boat on a grant for installing a home charger.

 

[ericmark]

I have still not seen a fool proof way to install a single phase EV charge point with a TN-C-S supply except if charged inside a garage.
There have been numerous ways considered and tried.
1) A small earth rod to detect if true earth and DNO earth are not the same voltage.
2) A large earth rod and convert to a TT supply.
3) Monitoring voltage with auto disconnect earth and lives if not between 207 and 253 volt.
4) An earth mat to park car on.
All seem to have problems, from underground services causing the DNO earth to be exported to ground near the earth rod, to over loading supply earth cables, to simply not disconnecting within a reasonable time.
To date the isolation transformer built into the car so whole car is class II seems to be best, but this required a complete new protocol.

The old idea as used with the Bedford Lucas CA van with batteries which can be easy swapped also seems good, they had two versions, one with fixed batteries and one with exchangeable batteries. But again a new system would need to be developed like with USB charging, and there is always one bad apple in the bunch who will not conform to new standards.

It seems there have been cars built which you can select to use all electric for up to 100 miles range, or start the engine to extend the range to 200 miles, with of course then the option of re-fuelling the ICE tank. But seems these have been withdrawn now.

The problem be it solar panels or EV vehicles if they are going to pay for themselves depends on government grants. And governments have been quick in the past moving goal posts, we have seen it with fishing, and farming where the farmer needs to plan at least 10 years ahead, but the government gives 2 years or less notice of a change.

Once we have climbed over the butter mountain we may have some usable system, but New Zealand has found other markets now, so any idea it will return to how it was, and we can walk into a post office and get a one year pass port for the EU is living in cloud cuckoo land.

However for any transport system using rails, using electric power is far easier than systems using roads, even if the pantagraphs need raising and lowing as we move from main to branch lines, and using part battery power and part over head. The fact that our rail network is not 100% electric points to some other aim than stopping the use of ICE vehicles, likely wanting to generate more income for some company who has successfully lobbied government.

We have seen the result in the washing plant failing on out heritage railways, and non renewal of the licence to mine coal in South Wales, but then considering opening up mines in Cumbria, clearly nothing to do with evils of fossil fuels, but some government scheme to move employment from Wales to England.

So many times we have realised we have been fed false news, I no longer believe what governments say, and what is the point with an electric car when it seems the way things are going we will return to the man with the red flag.

It seems the environment impact of removing horses from city streets what huge, mainly in improvements in health. I can see how the push bike can help, but one is talking about a way of life long gone in the UK, before the railways we had to live near our work, the railways changed that, I have tried riding 8 miles to local town and back, North Wales Shotton to Chester worked fine, motor traffic free routes, two of them, and flat, but from Llanfair to Welshpool with hills and a road shared with motor transport and armaco barriers so any accident involving a bike is fatal, no thank you, I don't want to be going down that road.

 

[norseman]

I'm not at all sure that restoring revenue is the only purpose. I imagine the aforementioned technology will also enable Big Brother to check our speed compliance, destinations, driving standards etc.

 

[ktuludays]

I'm amazed how many people have bought into ev based on the "better for the environment" mantra. Some basic research would show that it's not the amazing planet saving device that we're led to believe and yet like sheep people are jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[DiyNutJob]

what is the point with an electric car when it seems the way things are going we will return to the man with the red flag.

Quit complaining. Some of us have had 20mph for years and we still managed. You really need to calm that budding race driver in you down. Go play instead with electric cables, there's a good chap.

 

[ericmark]

The statement then continued: “The AA will offer a limited - first come first served - emergency recovering charging facility (to members and non-members) on site at Bronze car park only, off the A361. Emergency charging is at a fixed cost of £50 for up to an hour’s charge/80% battery (whichever is soonest).

at Glastonbury Festival 2022, a bargain, now over £100 to fill my tank with diesel, there were advising

“Please charge before you travel to site - if you have less than 50 miles charge on approach to the site, please recharge before you enter the Festival car parks, making sure you have sufficient charge to start your return journey after the Festival.”

Now the only guy I know with an electric van has a milk round of 64 miles and the van rated at 120 miles range, but he still runs out of charge from time to time. So in real terms they are saying arrive with a fully charged car.

But I remember the days of carrying a spare gallon of petrol, fuel gauges were not the best, so suppose you could carry one of these and a gallon of petrol like any good boy scout.

The experience with an e-bike however was nothing shown between 1/3 charged and empty, cruised around a corner to Oh dear need to peddle rest of way home, would not have wanted to stay on that corner charging battery up.

 

[Avocet]

I have still not seen a fool proof way to install a single phase EV charge point with a TN-C-S supply except if charged inside a garage.
There have been numerous ways considered and tried.
1) A small earth rod to detect if true earth and DNO earth are not the same voltage.
2) A large earth rod and convert to a TT supply.
3) Monitoring voltage with auto disconnect earth and lives if not between 207 and 253 volt.
4) An earth mat to park car on.
All seem to have problems, from underground services causing the DNO earth to be exported to ground near the earth rod, to over loading supply earth cables, to simply not disconnecting within a reasonable time.
To date the isolation transformer built into the car so whole car is class II seems to be best, but this required a complete new protocol.

The old idea as used with the Bedford Lucas CA van with batteries which can be easy swapped also seems good, they had two versions, one with fixed batteries and one with exchangeable batteries. But again a new system would need to be developed like with USB charging, and there is always one bad apple in the bunch who will not conform to new standards.

It seems there have been cars built which you can select to use all electric for up to 100 miles range, or start the engine to extend the range to 200 miles, with of course then the option of re-fuelling the ICE tank. But seems these have been withdrawn now.

The problem be it solar panels or EV vehicles if they are going to pay for themselves depends on government grants. And governments have been quick in the past moving goal posts, we have seen it with fishing, and farming where the farmer needs to plan at least 10 years ahead, but the government gives 2 years or less notice of a change.

Once we have climbed over the butter mountain we may have some usable system, but New Zealand has found other markets now, so any idea it will return to how it was, and we can walk into a post office and get a one year pass port for the EU is living in cloud cuckoo land.

However for any transport system using rails, using electric power is far easier than systems using roads, even if the pantagraphs need raising and lowing as we move from main to branch lines, and using part battery power and part over head. The fact that our rail network is not 100% electric points to some other aim than stopping the use of ICE vehicles, likely wanting to generate more income for some company who has successfully lobbied government.

We have seen the result in the washing plant failing on out heritage railways, and non renewal of the licence to mine coal in South Wales, but then considering opening up mines in Cumbria, clearly nothing to do with evils of fossil fuels, but some government scheme to move employment from Wales to England.

So many times we have realised we have been fed false news, I no longer believe what governments say, and what is the point with an electric car when it seems the way things are going we will return to the man with the red flag.

It seems the environment impact of removing horses from city streets what huge, mainly in improvements in health. I can see how the push bike can help, but one is talking about a way of life long gone in the UK, before the railways we had to live near our work, the railways changed that, I have tried riding 8 miles to local town and back, North Wales Shotton to Chester worked fine, motor traffic free routes, two of them, and flat, but from Llanfair to Welshpool with hills and a road shared with motor transport and armaco barriers so any accident involving a bike is fatal, no thank you, I don't want to be going down that road.

I'm not much into conspiracy theories, to be honest. I think some of our rail network isn't electrified, simply because none of it was, and bit-by-bit, we've been spending the money to electrify it, but haven't done all of it yet. I don't think there's anything more sinister than that involved. Just successive governments failing to invest in the infrastructure.

Likewise, the Cumbrian mine isn't any kind of anti-Welsh thing (well, I don't think it is, at any rate), I think it's just that suitable coking coal is plentiful in that part of Cumbria. There's nothing to stop the Welsh Assembly incentivising coal mines in Wales! (Whether or not it's a good idea to have ANY more coal mines, is a separate debate, of course).

I'm not sure what the man with the red flag has to do with the price of fish, but at least if the cars around him are electric, he will benefit from better air quality!

Not all accidents between motor transport and pushbikes are fatal. I can personally testify to that!

 

[Avocet]

I'm not at all sure that restoring revenue is the only purpose. I imagine the aforementioned technology will also enable Big Brother to check our speed compliance, destinations, driving standards etc.

Indeed. At best, I can see DVLA selling our data so we get bombarded with adverts for places along routes we often travel. At worst, it could be FAR more sinister...

 

[Avocet]

I'm amazed how many people have bought into ev based on the "better for the environment" mantra. Some basic research would show that it's not the amazing planet saving device that we're led to believe and yet like sheep people are jumping on the bandwagon.

They are indisputably "better for the planet" in some ways, but cause damage in others. I don't think many people are daft enough to believe that they are "amazing planet-saving devices", just another step along the road towards something that does less damage. If you have a better idea, let's hear it!