EV are they worth it?

[Diver Fred]

Do wonder about battery life on infrequently used EV's.
I know several people who have mobile phone's for 'Emergency' use, never switched on cause they want to ensure the battery is not run down (don't want to 'waste' the battery) but when they want use the phone the battery is discharged and will not charge up enough to hold any decent charge ever again.
The battery technology is the same just a different capacity.

 

[norseman]

That's pretty unlikely in reality, but ICE engines are so inefficient, that the small evaporative losses won't even register on the fuel gauge...

Some of these conversations clearly indicate which side of the fence the Peep stands.
Me? I'm happy keeping an open mind, despite being un-ashamedly old school

 

[Avocet]

Do wonder about battery life on infrequently used EV's.
I know several people who have mobile phone's for 'Emergency' use, never switched on cause they want to ensure the battery is not run down (don't want to 'waste' the battery) but when they want use the phone the battery is discharged and will not charge up enough to hold any decent charge ever again.
The battery technology is the same just a different capacity.

As yet, that doesn't seem to be proving a big deal. I gather that laying them up with fully-charged batteries isn't good for them. My handbook says that if you're going to lay it up for a period of months, run the battery down to 60% or less. Whilst broadly the same, I think EV batteries are generally of much higher quality and more rigorously tested than phone or laptop batteries. The chemistry are similar but I think the management software is very different. Remember, that EV manufacturers are warranting their batteries for 7 or 8 years. No phone manufacturer ever did that!

 

[DiyNutJob]

Remember, that EV manufacturers are warranting their batteries for 7 or 8 years.

The warranty simply means if it catches fire, you get a new battery. But since the fire cannot be put out, the car would be burnt to dust. After, they give you a free battery. What will you do with it, you don't have a car any more?

 

[StephenStephen]

The warranty simply means if it catches fire, you get a new battery. But since the fire cannot be put out, the car would be burnt to dust. After, they give you a free battery. What will you do with it, you don't have a car any more?

Sigh - nope, that's just just made up nonsense.

 

[flameport]

Do wonder about battery life on infrequently used EV's.

Here's one which was parked for 10 years outside.
12V battery weas dead, but the traction battery still had charge. Vehicle still drives once 12V power was applied.

 

[Avocet]

The warranty simply means if it catches fire, you get a new battery. But since the fire cannot be put out, the car would be burnt to dust. After, they give you a free battery. What will you do with it, you don't have a car any more?

Tosh.

I have the warranty terms in front of me. It's like any other warranty. If it goes wrong in the warranty period they put it right. End of. (Oh, and it applies to the whole electric powertrain, so that's also the motor and inverter...)

Now... go and parade your ignorance somewhere else...

 

[ericmark]

I like the idea of jumping into a fully refueled car each time I go out, however cost is something else.

I know you can get special rates at the moment to recharge the car, but I today looked at price per mile ICE v EV I expected the EV to be cheaper which it is, but the margin is small when using electric from a domestic supply, and if using a public supply it reverses.

So clearly people don't want to use public charging points, so cost goes up. And no one really wants to charge from a 7 or even 22 kW outlet, so I can see more EV's being sold, but it will fail to continue to raise at the rate it has done.

With enough solar I may get free motoring, and the cars battery will help smooth supply and demand, but in this village I am one of the few who can park an EV where it can be charged from the house supply, most need to park in a public parking space.

 

[flameport]

but the margin is small when using electric from a domestic supply,

Hardly.

Even charging on full rate electricity at 30p/kWh, that's 7.5p per mile for an electric vehicle which can do 4 miles/kWh - and that is not anything special or unusual.

Petrol today is average 1.56 per litre, and to be the same 7.5p per mile it would be almost 21 miles per litre, or 95mpg. Good luck finding any car anywhere near that.
Even with a 47mpg car, it's still double the price of electricity - and if driving in urban areas in a petrol car, you won't be getting anywhere near that.

For the UK average annual mileage of 7000 per year, even if only saving 7.5p per mile, that's over £500 per year - and that's using full rate electricity which no one with any sense would use if they owned an EV and could charge at home.

I know you can get special rates at the moment to recharge the car,

Those reduced rates are not going away. They will vary as to the time of day when they are available, and that will very likely be different times each day, but having an excess of generation and lack of load to use it are features of the grid today, and will be even more so in the future.

And no one really wants to charge from a 7 or even 22 kW outlet,

22kW is unrelated as most cars can't use that.
As for 7kW charging - the idea is that when parked, the car is plugged in. If you park somewhere for an hour or four, it's an hour or four of charging.
This is not driving somewhere to charge - it's plugging in at the place you were going to park at anyway.

 

[Avocet]

I like the idea of jumping into a fully refueled car each time I go out, however cost is something else.

I know you can get special rates at the moment to recharge the car, but I today looked at price per mile ICE v EV I expected the EV to be cheaper which it is, but the margin is small when using electric from a domestic supply, and if using a public supply it reverses.

So clearly people don't want to use public charging points, so cost goes up. And no one really wants to charge from a 7 or even 22 kW outlet, so I can see more EV's being sold, but it will fail to continue to raise at the rate it has done.

With enough solar I may get free motoring, and the cars battery will help smooth supply and demand, but in this village I am one of the few who can park an EV where it can be charged from the house supply, most need to park in a public parking space.

My experience is very similar to Flameport's. I don't have a smart meter. Mine is an old Economy 7 meter. I pay 34p per kWh in the day and 15p at night. I get the 15p rate for 7 hours. My home EV charger is 7kW, so I can get nearly 50 kWh of cheap electricity each night.

My car is "thirsty" by EV standards, but I do enjoy the performance. I'm going to say it only does 3 miles to the kWh. As you can see, if I charge at the 15p night rate and it does 3 miles to the kWh, it's costing me 5p a mile. My last diesel ICE (which would average nearly 50 to the gallon), was costing me 15 p per mile. 3 times as much as the EV, and it had a poxy 130 bhp. The EV has 335 bhp...

Now a 7kW is fine for an overnight charger. My battery holds 80kWh, but I never charge from completely empty. MOST (but not all) nights, I can get it back to the recommended 80% charge overnight at 7kW.

However, it all changes on public chargers. They can be an absolute rip-off! a modest 50kW one is likely to be about 60p per kWh, but the really fast ones (150kW plus) can but nearly 80p per kWh. Obviously, your paying for speed of charge, not just the electricity. But an 80p one would work out at a whopping 27p per kWh! That's much more expensive than a diesel ICE. (Although, to be fair, if I picked a diesel with equivalent performance to the EV, the difference wouldn't be so great).

It goes without saying that I only use public fast chargers when I have to, and I only take the bare minimum that I need to get home! It requires a completely different way of thinking to an ICE. With the ICE, you'd never aim to arrive home as close to "empty" as possible!

 

[DiyNutJob]

It requires a completely different way of thinking to an ICE.

Yes, you have to think about the cost of replacing the battery after warranty. You have to think about the battery every time you have a bump. Sometimes you'd get a bump without being aware because the other guy drove off while you weren't there. You have to think about the higher buying price for the car. You have to think about lower resale price of the car because people will not trust a used battery. You have to think about lowered write off threshold because the insurers would not trust a battery in an accidented car. You have to think about if it will go up in flames while you sleep. Even if you weren't asleep, you can't put the fire out. With you keep looking at the charge level while driving, there is increased probability of a crash. Even a minor crash to the curb will get you thinking about the battery being damaged. In time, kids will learn to unplug chargers for fun. EV being "connected" enables spying on you. One day, network based hijacking through remote take over could become a thing. All that thinking and hassle will turn you into an emotional wreck. Not worth it in my book.

 

[mointainwalker]

(16 mins )

A road test of the Audi e-tron GT by high peak autos. He's doing a 230 mile drive down to Eastbourne from Stockport area, so all heavily developed, motorways etc. Brutal comments on charging infrastructure, eye-watering cost of charge, complimentary about car except its price - £ 93K

​

 

[Avocet]

Yes, you have to think about the cost of replacing the battery after warranty.

Personally, I don't, as it's a company car. The warranty is 8 years / 100,000 miles, so I'm not actually that bothered. Looking at EVs up to 12 years old on Autotrader (still on their original batteries), and seeing long term durability reports on EVs that are doing a quarter of a million miles plus, and seeing battery repair facilities starting to spring up, I don't really expect to ever have to replace an EV battery. At worst, maybe some individual cells. I'd probably steer clear of a Tesla with a bonded battery pack, where the cells are glued together, because they're designed to be thrown away, but would happily go for an EV where individual cells could be replaced.

You have to think about the battery every time you have a bump.

I'd think about whatever part of any car (electric or otherwise) got bumped, if it had a bump. Fortunately, I don't have many of those...

Sometimes you'd get a bump without being aware because the other guy drove off while you weren't there.

Don't be silly! If I had a bump from a hit-and-run driver, small enough that I didn't notice it, on walking up to the car, it won't have bothered the battery pack! I do have the advantage of knowing the type approval tests that EV batteries have to go through, so I wouldn't be in the least bit worried about a "parking knock"! If you actually want something real to whine and moan about, I'd have the car checked over if I grounded it hard on something, but that hasn't happened yet.

You have to think about the higher buying price for the car.

You have to think about lower resale price of the car because people will not trust a used battery.

I think about the buying price of ANY car I buy, regardless of its powertrain. However, being an open-minded sort of chap, I'd also think about the savings I'd make in running costs, when driving about at 5p a mile, instead of 15p a mile. I'd also think about the savings in servicing costs, both regular servicing and the traditional "big" items like cam belts, water pumps, exhausts, clutches, etc... Because the difference, is that I'd be actually serious about the total cost of ownership, rather than just casting around desperately for something to hate. Resale value tends not to bother me when I'm shopping with my own money, as I tend to buy relatively low value "sheds" and run them until I scrap them. That goes for ICEs too.

You have to think about lowered write off threshold because the insurers would not trust a battery in an accidented car.

No, I don't worry about that at all. The insurers worry about it...

You have to think about if it will go up in flames while you sleep.

That's an easy one. As they're between 20 and 60 times LESS likely to go up in smoke than an ICE car, I worry about it between 20 and 60 times less. (And frankly, I don't worry about it happening to my ICE cars, much either, so we're talking between 1/20th and 1/60th of what is already a very small amount of worry).

With you keep looking at the charge level while driving,

I look at it while driving, about as often as I look at the fuel gauge in my ICE cars... (You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now, aren't you?!

there is increased probability of a crash.

You can, of course, prove that... right...? Until then, I'm calling "BS" on that claim.

Even a minor crash to the curb will get you thinking about the battery being damaged.

As above, no, it doesn't...

In time, kids will learn to unplug chargers for fun.

They'll have a job! The cables lock into the sockets automatically as soon as current starts flowing!

EV being "connected" enables spying on you.

You don't think that happens with current ICEs?! (Bless...)

One day, network based hijacking through remote take over could become a thing.

Absolutely! Good job there are new cybersecurity regulations coming into force from July next year for every new car sold in the EU, eh? Sadly, Brexit Britain is a bit behind the curve on that one, but will probably meekly follow the EU shortly... Of course, there's no more chance of an EV being hacked in that way, than a current ICE...

...but you know that... didn't you...?

All that thinking and hassle will turn you into an emotional wreck. Not worth it in my book.

I'm made of tougher stuff than that. You might be wetting your pants at the prospect of getting a car without a starting handle, but I'm pretty sanguine about most developments in automotive technology...

 

[bernardgreen]

On the BBC TV Look East this morning ( October 11th ) :- a report that Covea insurance are reluctant to quote for insuring fully electric vehicles.

 

[DiyNutJob]

You can, of course, prove that... right...? Until then, I'm calling "BS" on that claim.

Yes I can. I once crashed into the curb while adjusting the radio. Now I don't do anything while driving. I'd be extra careful even when I move my eye balls. Distractions in EV's make them crash magnets. The law is correct to disallow the driver to do anything at all with a mobile phone. Same needs to apply to EV's. It's not beyond possibility one day a law will be passed to blanket ban all EV's not meeting certain requirements, in the same way they came down heavy on diesels.