EV are they worth it?

[robinbanks]

very little of the UK's electricity is generated by oil

True; the point I'm making is that, for reasons generally surrounding pollution and health, the world is sensibly turning away from the practice of having local, uncontrolled or suboptimal processes that generate an effect, and turning towards centralised, optimal and controlled generation of something that can be used locally to better effect.

There are loads of examples but central heating versus open fires in every room is probably one that people can relate to easily; let's start in the cave, just burning wood on the floor and suffering the smoke inhalation. Let's move to an open coal fire, where at least the smoke goes up the chimney and poisons everyone else. Let's move to central heating using a boiler that performs a finely controlled burn and distribute the haet to rooms via water. Let's move to district heating or reusing the waste heat from some other industrial process. Let's move to some renewable generation of heat when the renewable's available and store the heat until it's needed..

Progress will march on, supported by legislation from the handful we've elected to look to the future (yeah.. I know. It goes wrong occasionally, when the nincompoops amass and do something like criminalising abortion).. DNJ adn Regan can join in when they're ready, when EVs ahave had another 10 years of ironing the kinks out to a point they don't have to think so much..

..and hopefully the proportion of population that thinks along the lines of "how can I do more with less" will grow compared to "how can I keep finding ways to carry on burning through resources to proceed as I always have?" i.e. insulate one's house so you one less energy rather than buying a more efficient boiler so one uses a bit less fuel to carry on letting X kWh of heat out into the world

no discernable gains

Really? You cannot find a single EV owner who says something positive about their experience?

No discernible gains is your blinkered perspective only; it's holding you back from seeing how EV owners that find it an improvement over an ICE vehicle actually do so

In short, it seems your mind is closed - there is none so blind as they who will not see

 

[bernardgreen]

An electric bus station fire could cause high-rise residences to erupt like volcanoes, residents fear

Fears of a "thermal runaway" under apartments have prompted calls to abandon a £1.7 billion development in Edgware.

www.fia.uk.com

 

[DiyNutJob]

Only useful if you have the rapid charger cable.

Nope. Even rapid charging cable could be quite useless. EV owners will just have to make do with slow charging.

 

[Avocet]

I'm sure if you are used to EVs, with some careful planning and experience you could mitigate SOME of the hassle and inconvenience. However, bearing in mind the silly prices of these things, the sometimes rapid depreciation and used values uncertainty (not forgetting Tesla screwing their owners by suddenly slashing list prices by thousands), plus all the extra and potential pitfalls, aggro, extra planning, over reliance on technology, etc, etc - they still don't make any sense.

You have to remember that my circumstances are different. It's a company car, so right away, all the problems with residual values and initial purchase price, don't fall on my shoulders. Right now, I've gone from paying 34% benefit in kind, by way of company car tax for a diesel, to 2% benefit in kind for an EV. That saves me a couple of £grand a year, just in tax. Then there's the saving in running costs for private mileage, which is also massive, as most of my private mileage is within the range of the battery, so I'm spending 5p a mile. As a company car, I wouldn't be picking up servicing costs anyway, but it's worth nothing that this car's FIRST service, isn't due until the end of 2025, and I've already had it nearly a year!

Now of course, if I was shopping with my own money, there's no way I'd be able to afford one, but of course, part of the plan when it comes to having them as company cars, is that after a couple of years, they get fed into the second hand market, which both reduces the cost and increases the choice for me in the future, when they're down to sensible money.

Not in their current form. I still can't work out why EV owners rushed to make their lives more complicated and expensive for no discernable gains. But everyone's different.

There are a number of reasons - not all of which (or perhaps any of which!) you might agree with, but here goes anyway!

1. They're actually quite nice to drive. I say this, as a dyed-in-the-wool petrolhead, who has spent his working life in the niche vehicle industry, and who owns an old petrol car that he's very fond of. However, the EV driving experience is "different" to that of an old petrol manual car, but I wouldn't say "worse". The refinement is incredible (you'd expect that, of course). The acceleration is spectacular (particularly from standstill, but overtaking (at any vaguely legal speed), is also pretty spectacular. I do "big miles" for work, and whilst I love taking my petrol car out for the odd thrash, there's no denying that an EV is very undemanding to drive on a long run, when you just want to get to your destination. Likewise, in stop-start traffic,they're an absolute breeze.

2. We have an air quality problem in our town and cities. The government is under a High Court order to improve air quality. We are killing more people each year by driving our cars, than we are by running them over or crashing into them. EVs make a significant improvement in that regard.

3. We have a climate problem, with ever more extreme weather events - floods, wildfires, etc. Parts of the planet are becoming less inhabitable and that's part of the driving force behind our immigration problems. It will only get worse. Some people choose not to believe it, but scientific consensus is now practically unanimous.

4. Oil is a finite resource, and getting more scarce. What little of it we have left, is largely in the hands of some rather unpleasant regimes who don't like us very much. Rather than give them my hard-earned, I'd much rather we built up our own independence and energy security as a nation.

And if EVs are so good, governments wouldn't have to legislate us into owning them.

For many years, governments have either banned harmful things (like smoking), or encouraged beneficial things (like better diet and exercise). At every step, there have been people who didn't want to make that change, who have always said: "but if it was that good / bad, governments wouldn't have to legislate for / against it"! Right now, there are probably kids all over the country saying "if school was so good, why would the government have to force us to go there?"!

 

[Avocet]

Nope. Even rapid charging cable could be quite useless. EV owners will just have to make do with slow charging.

Have you eve wondered what those black, cable-like things on the sides of the those chargers are...?

 

[Avocet]

True; the point I'm making is that, for reasons generally surrounding pollution and health, the world is sensibly turning away from the practice of having local, uncontrolled or suboptimal processes that generate an effect, and turning towards centralised, optimal and controlled generation of something that can be used locally to better effect.

There are loads of examples but central heating versus open fires in every room is probably one that people can relate to easily; let's start in the cave, just burning wood on the floor and suffering the smoke inhalation. Let's move to an open coal fire, where at least the smoke goes up the chimney and poisons everyone else. Let's move to central heating using a boiler that performs a finely controlled burn and distribute the haet to rooms via water. Let's move to district heating or reusing the waste heat from some other industrial process. Let's move to some renewable generation of heat when the renewable's available and store the heat until it's needed..

Progress will march on, supported by legislation from the handful we've elected to look to the future (yeah.. I know. It goes wrong occasionally, when the nincompoops amass and do something like criminalising abortion).. DNJ adn Regan can join in when they're ready, when EVs ahave had another 10 years of ironing the kinks out to a point they don't have to think so much..

..and hopefully the proportion of population that thinks along the lines of "how can I do more with less" will grow compared to "how can I keep finding ways to carry on burning through resources to proceed as I always have?" i.e. insulate one's house so you one less energy rather than buying a more efficient boiler so one uses a bit less fuel to carry on letting X kWh of heat out into the world


Really? You cannot find a single EV owner who says something positive about their experience?

No discernible gains is your blinkered perspective only; it's holding you back from seeing how EV owners that find it an improvement over an ICE vehicle actually do so

In short, it seems your mind is closed - there is none so blind as they who will not see

Indeed. Not sure about the abortion comment, but that's going way off topic anyway. The rest is (to my mind at least!) just common sense.

 

[DiyNutJob]

It's like a toilet cistern. Even if your water pressure is poor or fluctuates you can still get the occasional whoosh you need to get the job done by having a storage mechanism in between generation and use.

Petrol/diesel is a already a highly efficient storage system per Kg of media. Battery is not. When it comes to EVs, we'll just have to give them a whoosh down the toilet.

Current EV's are a greed manifestation of car makers and their parasitic political partners in crime. They dived head long into EVs without first looking into the feasibility. In the end, the EV buyers pay with either fires, or expensive, bulky, volumous paper weight that threaten to ignite at any moment.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Have you eve wondered what those black, cable-like things on the sides of the those chargers are...?

Nope. But, I can imagine a frustrated EV owner on urgent travel doing self harm with one of those things by making a special knot.

 

[Avocet]

Petrol/diesel is a already a highly efficient storage system per Kg of media. Battery is not. When it comes to EVs, we'll just have to give them a whoosh down the toilet.

Oh really? OK, how much of the energy in the petrol and diesel ends up pushing the car along the road, and how much of the energy in an EV's battery ends up pushing the car along the road?

Current EV's are a greed manifestation of car makers and their parasitic political partners in crime. They dived head long into EVs without first looking into the feasibility. In the end, the EV buyers pay with either fires, or expensive, bulky, volumous paper weight that threaten to ignite at any moment.

I'm happy to take my chances...

...but then, I'm able to apply some critical thinking and sift through the BS out there...

 

[Avocet]

Nope. But, I can imagine a frustrated EV owner on urgent travel doing self harm with one of those things by making a special knot.

Imagining, is probably about as close as you'll get...

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Really? You cannot find a single EV owner who says something positive about their experience?

No discernible gains is your blinkered perspective only; it's holding you back from seeing how EV owners that find it an improvement over an ICE vehicle actually do so

In short, it seems your mind is closed - there is none so blind as they who will not see

Calm yourself down Robby, (though if you're an EV convert I can see why you may be a little over-wrought having been taken in), and cut the insults you use instead of reasoned argument. Now when you're ready, please list the REAL, TANGIBLE benefits to EV ownership. Things that are worth all the extra hassle, inconvenience, expense and the hilarity of driving something that sounds just like a Unigate milk float (well, my neighbour's Tesla does).

I thought Prius owners were bad.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Imagining, is probably about as close as you'll get...

Lack of imagination has always been you problems. It does not allow you to get a feel for things. Therefore, you dive headlong into mistakes.

Oh really? OK, how much of the energy in the petrol and diesel ends up pushing the car along the road, and how much of the energy in an EV's battery ends up pushing the car along the road?

Electricity is 3x more expensive to generate than gas. The expense came from the energy injected to achieve the resulting energy. In simple terms electricity is 3x less efficient than gas. I estimate 2x less efficient than patrol/diesel.

 

[Avocet]

Lack of imagination has always been you problems. It does not allow you to get a feel for things. Therefore, you dive headlong into mistakes.

Yes, dealing with facts, does cut out some of the wilder delusions, I have to admit...

Electricity is 3x more expensive to generate than gas. The expense came from the energy injected to achieve the resulting energy. In simple terms electricity is 3x less efficient than gas. I estimate 2x less efficient than patrol/diesel.

You still haven't a clue what "efficiency" means, have you? By your measure, my electric car is about 3x more "efficient" than my last diesel, because it costs me 5p a mile instead of 15p per mile...

 

[DiyNutJob]

By your measure, my electric car is about 3x more "efficient" than my last diesel, because it costs me 5p a mile instead of 15p per mile...

Yes, if you ignore the fire risk, infrastructure damage risk (ship burning, car park burning, bridge burning, school burning, church burning, etc) , house burning down risk, life extinguishing risk, battery replacement cost (1/3 of a new car), environmental damage by non-recyclability, road damage cost owing to heavier weight, higher insurance cost for both car and house, lower resale value, and unsellable risk owning to dealer refusing to take on a fire risk.

 

[Avocet]

Yes, if you ignore the fire risk,

Lower than ICE

infrastructure damage risk (ship burning, car park burning, bridge burning, school burning, church burning, etc)

Lower than with ICE...

, house burning down risk, life extinguishing risk,

Lower than ICE...

battery replacement cost (1/3 of a new car),

Unlikely to ever need one...

environmental damage by non-recyclability,

Complies with all the same recyclability regulations as an ICE and has the distinct advantage of being able to use renewable fuel throughout its life...

road damage cost owing to heavier weight,

Same risk as any ICE of the same weight, but I don't hear you complaining about those, hypocrite!

higher insurance cost for both car and house,

Home insurance hasn't altered by a penny, as a result of getting an EV. Car insurance isn't my problem as it's a company car.

lower resale value, and unsellable risk owning to dealer refusing to take on a fire risk.

Again, not my problem, it's a company car, but looking on the Autotrader website, second hand EV values seem to be quite reasonable, actually. Perhaps you'd like to point out all the EVs in this list of cars with the worst depreciation?

Fastest depreciating cars: top 10 worst motoring money pits | Auto Express

Almost every new car depreciates, but some shed value faster than others. These are the top 10 fastest depreciating cars on sale today

www.autoexpress.co.uk

...then again, maybe you wouldn't...?

So once again, not only have you had to concede that even by your own, ridiculous metric, EVs are more efficient than ICE, but you've then had to rush around looking for somewhere else to plant the goalposts by bringing risk into the equation, and even then, you've proved that no matter how many lies you tell, you will always be called-out...

As own-goals go, that's pretty impressive, even by your standards!