EV are they worth it?

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All of this worry about climate change is perhaps understandable.
The changes being made and suggested to attempt to avoid climate change are rather pointless. Climate change does occur periodically, over hundreds and thousands of years as we are fully aware: the ice ages, for example.
The evidence for that is there and is accepted by most people.

Forcing everyone to make changes: EVs, heat pumps, etc. is not going to prevent climate change!
 
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LOL. If your talking about the capacity of electricity that can be delivered to people houses you are totally wrong.

Hence the slow increase in stations where hydrogen driven electric cars can be filled. Also a country that is biasing things very much in that direction.

Really - show me some evidence.
I'm curious that you think you're owed someone else's time to look things up for you, but still, as a one-off favour to you: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions
 
All of this worry about climate change is perhaps understandable.
The changes being made and suggested to attempt to avoid climate change are rather pointless. Climate change does occur periodically, over hundreds and thousands of years as we are fully aware: the ice ages, for example.
The evidence for that is there and is accepted by most people.

Forcing everyone to make changes: EVs, heat pumps, etc. is not going to prevent climate change!
Are you saying man is not contributing to climate change?
 
All of this worry about climate change is perhaps understandable.
The changes being made and suggested to attempt to avoid climate change are rather pointless. Climate change does occur periodically, over hundreds and thousands of years as we are fully aware: the ice ages, for example.
The evidence for that is there and is accepted by most people.

Forcing everyone to make changes: EVs, heat pumps, etc. is not going to prevent climate change!
I love that you seem to really believe that you know more about how global climate change works than the worlds most highly trained, peer reviewed specialists in the field - I'm curious - how do you maintain such effective cognitive dissonance?
 
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That is too short of a time to draw any conclusions. We know the sea levels have risen and fallen many time without the intervention of man, we also know we have a natural cycle of getting hotter and cooler, we can say mans use of some gases has reduced the size of the ozone layer, so southern hemisphere has got warmer as a result, but look at the output of one eruption and what man produced is nothing in comparison.

The amount of change is indeed, not unknown throughout the world's history. The rate of change, however, is unprecedented.

That in some areas may be a problem. However slowing the traffic to 50 MPH on a decline as with the Aston by-pass in North Wales is not going to help, and same really in Wrexham, although not to same extent,

Why not?

and it does not say electric cars are exempt from speed limit, so clearly not to get cleaner air.

That's an administrative issue. The idea behind the sped limit reduction is to reduce oxides of nitrogen. They are higher, the more load the engine is under. Reduce the engine load and you reduce the NOx - hence the lower sped limit. Quite patently, EVs do not produce tailpipe NOx, so hey should, indeed, be able to enjoy the higher speed limit. However, that then causes problems with policing. Now, as it happens, it's something I have advocated for some time now, as an incentive for people to switch to EVs - allow them exemption from the reduced speed limits in emission control areas. As we have largely abdicated responsibility for road policing to cameras, it shouldn't be too hard to get the computer to check the DVLA database before issuing the fixed penalty notice if the vehicle is, indeed, electric. However, when you see the number of incorrect ULEZ fines, you soon see that the DVLA' database is not infallible - (usually because someone has put a private plate on the car, from a previous ICE vehicle).

I would be interested to know what the 20 MPH speed limit has done, but any reduction with transport is likely countered by the increase in wood burning.

That's a bizarre non-sequitur?! Do people go out and say "boo hoo! I can't drive my car as much these days! Whatever shall I do? I know! I'll go and buy a woodstove"!

And the problem is people take unknown wood to burn, some treated, and even laburnum, which is poisonous, and it is well documented on how much cleaner London became with the invention of the motor car and lorry, horses were far worst to the motor car, and out clean air acts did stop the burning of coal, but no one is policing that any more, and to burn wood efficiently with low particular emissions means an after burn or catalytic converter and a set output, which means some storage medium so it can run at set output, these systems are expensive, and people burn wood to save money, so in the main wood burning means pollution, as people can't afford the £15k+ to fit efficient systems.

Largely true, (if somewhat off-topic), but even with the rise in woodstoves, the air quality in our cities is nothing LIKE as filthy as before the Clean Air Act! If it is as dirty, where are the "pea souper" smogs?

So all we save using electric cars is lost due to wood burning fires returning. And the cost of making the EV to the environment out weighs any gains made running it, so the environmental gains running electric are cancelled out. As for running cost it is only cheaper due to the tax put on liquid fuel.

BS, I'm afraid. You're mixing up "air quality" and "CO2". Two completely separate environmental problems. The environmental cost of building an EV (in terms of CO) is about 60-70% greater than a similar ICE, but that is typically recouped in tailpipe CO2 savings during use, after 2-5 years, depending on the CO2 per kWh of electricity generation in the country where the vehicle is being operated. It' a couple of years in the UK, or about 20-30,000 miles. After that, the EV has an increasing next CO2 saving over the ICE.
 
There is the possibility of a serious problem with mass ev ownership. It gets mentioned now and again. The national grid wont be able to cope with it. What isn't clear is that people who make this comment have looked at the subject in a sensible way. This could be done by studying fuel consumption by the various motoring sectors.

It has been stated that there is zero interest in updating the grid. More a case of patchwork and mostly leaving it as it is.

The other aspect is the cost of an EV. Chances are that if the motor industry want to continue to make similar numbers of cars lower range ones are likely to appear. Range more associated with typical commuting distances. But interest in hydrogen grows. Not a problem given sufficient cheap electricity.

So the grid will be able to cope with the electricity to make all this hydrogen for vehicles to run on, but not the electricity to charge EVs? Right now, 1 kWh of electricity put directly into an EV battery, will push a car about 3x as far as if you'd used that same 1 kWh of electricity to make hydrogen and then put the hydrogen into fuel cell to power a car. (And if you burn the hydrogen in an ICE, that's even less efficient than the fuel cell)!
 
Did man contribute to the end of the last ice age? I don't think they had motor cars of any description then!
That's just avoiding the question and you know it.

Is man contributing to climate change ?

Just sheer volume of numbers is 1 cause as murdochchat says.

And many of those driving, heating and other things they do.

Or you can say that we have no effect on climate change whatsoever.

What do you say ?
 
So the grid will be able to cope with the electricity to make all this hydrogen
The grid talking all of it does not need to carry it. It can be transported in much the same way as current liquid fuels are.

Bit of a map on this page

Also what to run HGV's on, trains where tracks aren't electrified and currently use diesel - interesting to relate that to HS2 - the full one. Buses etc as well.

The grid problems is some areas relate to what electricians call diversity although a more thorough picture of the entire grid is needed to appreciate it's effects. It's base on the ideas that no users draw peak power levels all of the time
 
The grid talking all of it does not need to carry it. It can be transported in much the same way as current liquid fuels are.

Sure, but getting the electricity to the place(s) where you're making the hydrogen?

Bit of a map on this page

Impressive... 6 at the moment. (Not all of which are available to cars)! It always causes a smile when on of the arguments commonly used against EVs is that there aren't enough charging stations, and in the next breath, someone will tell us how hydrogen is the answer! There are about 50,000 public chargers now, but only 6 hydrogen refuelling stations. (And, of course, anywhere with electricity can charge an EV, whereas I can't see many people making (and / or storing) their own hydrogen and filling at home. (At least, I bloody hope not)!

Also what to run HGV's on, trains where tracks aren't electrified and currently use diesel - interesting to relate that to HS2 - the full one. Buses etc as well.

The grid problems is some areas relate to what electricians call diversity although a more thorough picture of the entire grid is needed to appreciate it's effects. It's base on the ideas that no users draw peak power levels all of the time

Yes, I can see some limited applications for hydrogen. JCB are on to it, because plant is often -shifted, leaving no time to charge, and often, building sites don't have mains electricity in the early stages when the earthmovers are needed most. And yes, aviation, maybe. Trains are just about the easiest of transport to electrify. I really can't see the sense in trying to run those on hydrogen! Trucks are going to be interesting. 5 years ago everyone said there was no way you'd ever make an electric HGV work - and I'd have agreed with them! Yet look at Tesla now. 500 miles from a truck on one charge! (And even better battery energy density in the pipeline). Hydrogen is going to have it's work cut out for it, to compete with that...

And, of course, even if everyone had an EV, there's no particular reason why any user should draw peak power all the time? I certainly don't! In fact, if everyone had a vehicle-to-grid enabled EV, you could start taking some out of EV batteries at times of peak demand, helping smooth out the spikes in demand. Basically, people who weren't using their cars would have the option to sell back to the grid, at an attractive price, at times of high demand, and then top up again when demand was lower, and electricity cheaper. That's not something you can do with hydrogen.
 
Bit of a map on this page
Aberdeen, Sheffield and London.
A whole 3 cities where someone could possibly consider refuelling their hydrogen car.
The London site can do 250kg per day, or about 50 cars at 5kg each.
That's around 2 or 3 cars per hour.
Not 50 cars in one hour, as you can't fill a car then immediately start filling another one and repeat endlessly like people expect with petrol, as the system has to recharge the high pressure buffer tanks before another vehicle can be filled.

Refuelling a hydrogen vehicle is nothing like petrol or diesel and it never will be.
It's expensive, time consuming and inconvenient.

Even in places which have a significant number of filling stations, it's still a massive fail.
The live map is here: https://h2fcp.org/stationmap and still has 50% of the stations offline in the LA area.
 
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And, of course, even if everyone had an EV, there's no particular reason why any user should draw peak power all the time? I certainly don't! In fact, if everyone had a vehicle-to-grid enabled EV, you could start taking some out of EV batteries at times of peak demand, helping smooth out the spikes in demand. Basically, people who weren't using their cars would have the option to sell back to the grid, at an attractive price, at times of high demand, and then top up again when demand was lower, and electricity cheaper. That's not something you can do with hydrogen.
Yes, it's great that it's already happening here, though frustrating that it's taking so long to sort out V2G for CCS...
 
That's just avoiding the question and you know it.

Is man contributing to climate change ?
Can you prove that man is contributing to climate change?
More to the point, are you claiming that if we all buy EVs, climate change will not happen?
 
Can you prove that man is contributing to climate change?
More to the point, are you claiming that if we all buy EVs, climate change will not happen?

It can't be proved conclusively. By the time that is possible, it'll be too late. So instead, we have to go with the majority of scientific opinion. The degree of certainty is pretty high.


But even if we cast the climate change argument aside, there's 100% certainty that vehicle exhaust emissions are harmful. That's absolutely not in doubt. It's also pretty certain that the amount of oil we have, is finite, and largely concentrated in the hands of some rather unpleasant regimes around the world, who don't like us very much! It's also bloody expensive, and as supplies dwindle, the price is only going to go one way in the long run, so even just for the sake of the country's energy security, it makes sense!

I'm reminded of this cartoon, in fact:

claimate change_what if its all a hoax.jpg
 
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