Hate Crime

[Roy Bloom]

The World Health Organization's defines gender as "socially constructed", and sex as characteristics that are "biologically determined", drawing a distinction between the sex categories of male and female, and the genders "girls and boys who grow into men and women".

journals.physiology.org

I agree.
While sex is sometimes non-binary, and/or ambiguous, gender can be fluid.

Your claim that a man is a woman is erroneous.

Because gender can be fluid, and because 'man' and 'woman' are genders, a man can be a woman, and vice versa.

But Male is not Female. But sex can be non-binary and/or ambiguous.

 

[Odds]

I really don't care how clear you are in making your erroneous statements, they're still erroneous.

Sex and gender - Gender Matters - www.coe.int

www.coe.int

But if you think your opinion trumps the opinion of the Council of Europe, you carry on deluding yourself.

Until the pair of you can agree on the terms 'sex' and 'gender' you'll carry on going round in circles.
Good luck with that.

 

[JohnD]

'man' and 'woman' are genders

No they aren't.

A man is a male person and a woman is a female person.

 

[Roy Bloom]

No they aren't.

A man is a male person and a woman is a female person.

People often use the terms “sex” and “gender” interchangeably, but this is incorrect. Sex refers to biological physical differences, while gender is how people identify...
“Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex...
Gender also exists as social constructs — as gender “roles” or “norms.” These are definedTrusted Source as the socially constructed roles, behaviors, and attributes that a society considers appropriate for men and women.

Sex and gender: Meanings, definition, identity, and expression

Sex and gender are different. Sex is assigned at birth, while gender is how a person identifies. Gender encompasses a broad spectrum. Learn more here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

There you go, medical News Today says you're wrong.
You are confusing sex with gender.

 

[Deleted member 294929]

John & Roy
This is going around in circles

My take on this:
There is a plumber I have known for years that now identifying as a woman. She likes to be called Lucy. I call her Lucy. Why wouldn't I if that's what she wants.

But... the big But, is she is still a Man. As much as I like her and get on with her, she is still a man but I don't feel the need to offend her or make her unhappy

 

[Roy Bloom]

John & Roy
This is going around in circles

My take on this:
There is a plumber I have known for years that now identifying as a woman. She likes to be called Lucy. I call her Lucy. Why wouldn't I if that's what she wants.

But... the big But, is she is still a Man. As much as I like her and get on with her, she is still a man but I don't feel the need to offend her or make her unhappy

You're also confusing sex with gender.
I'm guessing what you really mean is that she was labelled as a male at birth., and she was raised as a male to suit that label. And she was expected to act the role of a male. But unless you have inspected her genitals, etc, yolu really have no idea what sex she is. People with ambiguous sex don't tend to introduce themselves as, "Hello, I'm Lucy, but they labelled me as a male because I have ambiguous sex".
As she prefers to be a woman, she should be considered as a woman. That's her prefered gender.
And if you address her as Lucy, you are respecting her wishes. What you think about it personally is of no consequence to them, unless you make a point of telling them. Then they are no longer your private thoughts.
But sometimes, it does take time for it to sink in.

 

[JohnD]

People often use the terms “sex” and “gender” interchangeably, but this is incorrect.

Yes you do that a lot, but deliberately.

When a man says "I am a woman" his sex is unchanged.

And he is not a woman.

 

[Deleted member 294929]

You're also confusing sex with gender.

I stopped reading after this Roy. I'm not confusing anything.

What ever way you look at it there are Males and there are female's. You can't go inventing another or somthing that's in-between.

 

[Odds]

I stopped reading after this Roy. I'm not confusing anything.

What ever way you look at it there are Males and there are female's. You can't go inventing another or somthing that's in-between.

Gender is a 'social construct' and 'sex' is a biological determinant, says the WHO.
The problem lies in the grey matter.
People perceive themselves and the world around them in different ways according to complex factors.
JohnD is providing a simple explanation with which he is comfortable, while Roy B. is trying to explain it's more complicated than that.
JohnD refuses to accept any other explanation other than the one he's provided.
Roy B. cannot accept such a simplistic world view.

nwgs is delighted the thread hasn't yet been shut down and is ordering another pint.

Did i miss anything?

 

[Deleted member 294929]

Did i miss anything?

Just the bit explaining the missing link.

 

[JohnD]

People perceive themselves and the world around them in different ways according to complex factors.
JohnD is providing a simple explanation with which he is comfortable, while Roy B. is trying to explain it's more complicated than that.
JohnD refuses to accept any other explanation other than the one he's provided.

If people are not content with their natural sex, current practice permits them to use any other description they like. Current practice calls this their gender.

However it is not possible to change your sex, which is determined genetically and expressed anatomically.

You cannot alter the meaning of a word, such as "giraffe" in order to declare that it applies to you.

I am not a giraffe, and I am not a woman, and it is impossible for me to become either, because I am a man.

 

[Odds]

If people are not content with their natural sex, current practice permits them to use any other description they like. Current practice calls this their gender.

However it is not possible to change your sex, which is determined genetically and expressed anatomically.

You cannot alter the meaning of a word, such as "giraffe" in order to declare that it applies to you.

I am not a giraffe, and I am not a woman, and it is impossible for me to become either, because I am a man.

In the context of discussing Transgender it's better to use the term gender which avoids the biological nomenclature of 'sex' that an adult can find too simplistic according to societal norms that do not cater for their internal perception of who they are.
A drag queen will wear female dress but still be demonstrably male while some will do so and feel perceptibly female on the inside. It is this distinction, i think, that eldues you.
I'm sure RB will correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Odds]

Just the bit explaining the missing link.

That's another question altogether, me old spigot.

 

[JohnD]

simplistic

"Sex" has an actual meaning, and is real, so it would be incorrect and misleading for anyone to speak as if it was something that can be changed at will.

 

[Odds]

"Sex" has an actual meaning, and is real, so it would be incorrect and misleading for anyone to speak as if it was something that can be changed at will.

Take it up with the WHO, in that case. It's their definitions i'm referring to.