ICJ ruling orders Israel to....

[JonathanM]

I've just watched this on the news.

Sad and hilarious at the same time.

The SNP and Tories tried to lay a trap for Labour and had a meltdown when it didn't work out.

So, instead of a decent debate and a vote on a sensible amendment from Labour, we had these ridiculous scenes. They couldn't vote properly, apparently, because Tory MPs were staging a sit-in in the No lobby .

 

[ajohn]

I missed one aspect. The Labour one mentioned a 2 state solution. Need to read it to quote. The other 2 didn't.

Starmer's first comment on Gaza was a route to a 2 state solution. It was given very little air time. Part of an answer to a question about some of his MP's wanting a ceasefire. My recollect on that was not now or something to that effect,

Speaker's apology. Based on him not expecting the result of his actions -toys out of the pram by some. He then said he would call up the party heads and discuss why he went the way he did. I like the bloke and he has had this sort of problem before and survived - this time ???

Tory response. The opposition should get their vote first and it was the SNP's turn. The SNP walked out.

Didn't catch the Tory sit in. All I heard was that Labour did vote for it's bill - successfully. If MP's obstruct proceedings they should be ejected. Maybe that's black rods job. Would make a wonderful video.

More ructions ahead - some sort of repeat performance - book your seats now. CNN and Foxnews might turn up.

 

[JonathanM]

 

[JonathanM]

There's still confusion about what actually happened. It looks like they had to have the vote on the Labour amendment in the chamber "on the nod". Even though it was deafening.

Tories and SNP were trying to delay the vote past 7pm because they thought it wouldn't then be allowed to happen.

 

[JonathanM]

The Tories and SNP have probably achieved what they wanted after all. Because they managed to prevent a proper vote, they have stopped Labour MPs having a vote recorded on a sensible motion calling for a ceasefire.

 

[Vinty]

Although the earliest mention of Israel is inscribed on the Merneptah Stele around 1213–1203 BCE,

The reference to Israel on the Merneptah is a bit ambiguous.
There are 3 lines which are interpretated as referring to Israel as a foreign people in Cannan and not a state.
This interpretation would be in line with the bible which says the Jewish people were not indigenous to the region.

 

[Vinty]

Can @fillyboy explain why he is entitled to seize my home at gunpoint, please

The same reason people hunt foxes.
Because they can.

 

[transam]

From what I saw on the. Beeb notifications earlier, they deserve standing up against a f+++ING wall.

"Uproar" against the Speaker, for "not following protocol"?
Sorry, but if protocol must be followed, the voting is somewhat pointless, the debating pointless........ they may as well have saved the heating and lighting.

Bunch of tnucs.

Be that as it may

But there is more to
This than meets the eye

Many MPs fear fear for there safety and the safety of there family members the threat level against MPs had gone up
Significantly since this Gaza caper kicked off in particular against Labour MPs

 

[Brigadier]

Many MPs fear fear for there safety and the safety of there family members the threat level against MPs had gone up
Significantly since this Gaza caper kicked off in particular against Labour MPs

.......which is precisely why the Speaker acted the way that he did (according to his defence of his actions).

Hoyle said later he had been persuaded to allow both amendments because of threats to the personal safety of many MPs.

Source:


Thanks for your post, in support of mine, @transam

 

[Odds]

John Crace sums it up nicely...

An SNP opposition day debate designed to highlight splits in the Labour party. A Labour amendment created to prevent a split in its own ranks. One that bridged the gap between the SNP position and the Labour leadership. A Tory amendment whose only function was to knock out Labour’s, as there was hardly a cigarette paper between them, under the parliamentary precedent that government amendments kick out opposition ones on such occasions.

It seems to me the Speaker was too weak in allowing different amendments to suit various factions that brought the proposal into conflict with itself - stronger moderation from the get-go would've avoided the farce from becoming worse.

 

[ajohn]

Many MPs fear fear for there safety and the safety of there family members the threat level against MPs had gone up
Significantly since this Gaza caper kicked off in particular against Labour MPs

Sorry I didn't mention that - carried away by the eventual events. He was very clear about that but very few words, no mention of death threats.

C4 interviewed a senior Tory, I tend to forget the name of the older balding ones. He said that the SNP should have been voted on first and the speaker chose Labour. It was the SNP's turn ???? Pass. It seems the opposition's should be read and voted on first.

Behind this is the fact that Starmer may have faced a revolt if they didn't have a suitable bill. Some would have voted for the SNP one against the whip leading to all sorts of problems. So a feeling gets expressed that it was all to Labour's advantage.

 

[ajohn]

hardly a cigarette paper between them

Not true. No mention of a route to a 2 state solution and no unconditional ceasefire.

Pundits will have their fun and the only answer is for people to go read the bills themselves which I have not done however I did listen to the debate so the above is my impression and I may be incorrect but I doubt if I am on the ceasefire aspect, A pause as called for by the Tory is a ceasefire which makes the comparison oh so simple but as usual the devil is in the detail.

Labour's view on the SNP one is no mention of a route to a 2 state solution. A view Starmer express a while ago. No idea why the SNP wouldn't agree to that.

 

[Odds]

No mention of a route to a 2 state solution and no unconditional ceasefire.

Fair enough - but it's hardly worth all this fuss for a vote nobody in the Middle East is going to pay the blindest bit of attention. Labour are desperate to avoid being labelled anti-semitic in any shape or form and the Tories will make every effort to frame them in that light. F*** the SNP. They're only allowed in Westminster to fill up empty seats with empty suits.

 

[ajohn]

but it's hardly worth all this fuss for a vote nobody in the Middle East is going to pay the blindest bit of attention.

Starmer - mentions international efforts to achieve 2 states. Seems Canada and Oz have agreed with their approach also that a growing number of countries also do.
EU
In a rare occurrence for the bloc, 26 of 27 member states isolated Hungary and issued their own statement calling for "an immediate humanitarian pause that could lead to a sustainable ceasefire" in the besieged Gaza Strip, where some 29,000 Palestinians have lost their lives since the start of the war.

In this case there is little difference between a pause and a ceasefire really. The idea is stop fighting and talk and reach an agreement.

The main sticking point appears to be the US apparently joined by the Tory. The Hague court actions should influence the US if they do stick to international law. One EU contry has provided funds to cover the legal cost of ICC actions. Be interesting to see how they are used. So far all that has been achieved is the US mentioning a ceasefire and 2 states but the conditions to reach the ceasefire are unlikely to be met anytime soon. Also while fighting is going on aid is difficult to get in.

 

[JohnD]

Israel is bitterly opposed to a 2-state solution, and always has been, though it likes to mention it as a vague distraction.