Plumbers/heating engineers- is this standard? (Value of scrap) (Ed.)

[Elsa TLC]

The in

Some interesting case studies there.....

I concur that it is for the tradesperson to specify in the contract and not turn it around on the customer. A reasonable person wouldn't classify a cylinder worth just under £100 as waste. If they are happy for the plumber to realise the value, then fine. But just taking it, annoys me.

Regarding me asking for the items back- I've got bigger issues I'm challenging with this current bunch so I'd rather focus my efforts on that. Like why they've invoiced me for a brand new smart thermostat and installed a grubby old circa 2019 model....

Did they take you rubbish?
Did they state that they will take your rubbish?
Did you state that you wanted to keep anything?

 

[johnny2007]

It's theft - taking without permission of the owner. It is not OK to just assume, because something is not bolted down, that it's OK to take it. Chairs, tables, watches are not bolted down - are they OK to assume the owner doesn't want them, to just take them?

I again invite you to read the theft act and if you don't understand it, ask any police officer.
If you don't have a gate in your front garden and leave something there that can be reasonably seen as discarded (a bunch of old copper pipes for example, or an old boiler), taking it will not be automatically considered theft.

 

[ebee]

Right, let`s just get things in perspective.

Put simply lots of words, phrases, used terms in speech have for example three or more meanings in use. 1/ everyday terms. 2/ Trade terms, therefore often a little technical. 3/ Legal terms.
All 3 terms (or more) generally mean similar things but there are often a few differences in their actual meanings.

As an electrician/electrical contractor for many years (I have now retired) , self employed working directly for customers (often domestic and occasionally in business premises ) and also working alongside )or subcontracted to or subcontracting them to me.
I have endeavoured to work within the law and within the rules of what I believe most people expect as fair play within their expectations.
Any deviations I foresee from their expectations that could possibly potentially be a source of uncertainty then I clarify.
That way everybody know what is expected.

In my view people have a reasonable expectation that in their home or other premises I will get rid of rubbish created such as plaster etc and old cables and accessories such as sockets and switches etc and I do it in a responsible way. I take a very dim view of so called tradesmen who leave this on the property, in my mid they have no right to be regarded as tradesmen.
If there are any parts that someone might perceivably want to reuse or give/sell to someone else I ask them if they want me to dispose of it.
I would never take something that I see as having a monetary value to anyone without prior explicit consent.
If any person wishes to have something for their own personal use, not for resale, then I would let them have it free of charge providing I do not envisage that it might be potentially unsafe or ill advised to use it.
I am all for recycling and if any item of mine or under my control and it`s going to be thrown away and someone else might have a use for it then I prefer it gets another use (save a polar bear and all that).

What I am against is someone taking something without specific consent and profiting from it whether for their own use or selling on as a working part or weighing in for scrap. In my view that is usually theft.
The trades I worked with all have similar views, lots of plumbers/heating engineers build up a pile of scrap to take to the scrapyard one the pile gets big enough but they always get prior consent to take it away.

I have seen, many times, some asking to take it and the customers asks what they will do with it and they tell them it goes eventually to the scrapyard and they get a few quid with it, usually the customer is happy with that, sometimes they might ask how much they might get for it and very rarely the customer might decide they want to keep it to sell it on themselves or as a working part to sell to someone.

If anyone takes anything that does not belong to make a gain from (by their own use or to sell on) and does not fully explain to the owner than in my humble opinion it is theft pure and simple.

 

[Elsa TLC]

Young Romanian Girl asked could she have some grapes from my front Garden this morning.

No problem I picked her some. If she had just taken them I may have been pìssed but I would have accused her of theft or reported her.

If this same girl cleaned my house, and deemed something like a sauce pan was to my requirements
because I had bought new.
Part of her job would be to dispose of the rubbish. The saucepan would go out with the rubbish, unless I instructird different.

 

[ebee]

You may or may not have intended to keep your old one as a spare or indeed passed it on to a friend or a relative, if you make it clear that you want it or do not want it or she could have it if she could make use of it or even if she wanted to sell it then it would all be fair.

 

[Elsa TLC]

You may or may not have intended to keep your old one as a spare or indeed passed it on to a friend or a relative, if you make it clear that you want it or do not want it or she could have it if she could make use of it or even if she wanted to sell it then it would all be fair.

So it's down to me to make her aware it's not rubbish and that i want to keep it.

 

[bsr]

@drives the used thermostat is not right and you should discuss with them.

The removal of old stuff I agree with the tradesmen. In my view it is accepted practice to remove old materials as 99% of customers don't want them. If you want to keep old gate valves and tanks then you need to let the tradesman know.

If it makes any difference I'm a diyer who also keeps and sells my scrap.

 

[drives]

Did they take you rubbish?
Did they state that they will take your rubbish?
Did you state that you wanted to keep anything?

Some of it. Some of it they left and I took to the tip. But, I said this wasn’t a problem as I go to the tip quite a lot so no issues there.

There was nothing in the quote or t and c’s regarding waste.

I didn’t say anything because to be honest I forgot. I get some peoples views that this is my error and I accept albeit don’t necessarily agree with their viewpoint.

As for whether it’s theft. Fits the definition I think. Realistically I get that I’d be asked to ask for it back before it is looked at (and even then it might not be if they refused and filed as some form of civil dispute. The dishonesty element is also an interesting one not least because of points raised here and thus what a reasonable person would consider dishonest). Plus it isn’t even on my radar to consider reporting it or anything like that. But…that doesn’t mean that it isn’t sailing a bit close to the wind potentially imo.

 

[Elsa TLC]

Some of it. Some of it they left and I took to the tip. But, I said this wasn’t a problem as I go to the tip quite a lot so no issues there.

There was nothing in the quote or t and c’s regarding waste.

I didn’t say anything because to be honest I forgot. I get some peoples views that this is my error and I accept albeit don’t necessarily agree with their viewpoint.

As for whether it’s theft. Fits the definition I think. Realistically I get that I’d be asked to ask for it back before it is looked at (and even then it might not be if they refused and filed as some form of civil dispute. The dishonesty element is also an interesting one not least because of points raised here and thus what a reasonable person would consider dishonest). Plus it isn’t even on my radar to consider reporting it or anything like that. But…that doesn’t mean that it isn’t sailing a bit close to the wind potentially imo.

I cover myself by stating in estimates.

In the past I have taken what I consider scrap, unless I'm asked not to.

I understand your point but I think you need to give them the benifit of the doubt as I'm sure they will feel they have done nothing wrong.

 

[drives]

I cover myself by stating in estimates.

In the past I have taken what I consider scrap, unless I'm asked not to.

I understand your point but I think you need to give them the benifit of the doubt as I'm sure they will feel they have done nothing wrong.

Reasonable. As with all these things it is a combination of a few issues and the thermostat ‘misunderstanding’ with this particular company (which is a stone bonker- they’ve charged in quote for new one), has proved to be the tipping point. Which I’m pretty sure is covered by another offence

 

[ebee]

So it's down to me to make her aware it's not rubbish and that i want to keep it.

No - it is down to her to ask and get a reply, the act accordingly, unless you make it clear to start with, that protects the giver and the taker both.
The default is for ever, it is not yours so do not take it. But you will get good brownie points if you state you will take the rubbish but make clear exactly what is and is not considered as rubbish. It is so simple.

Two mates of mine made a "mistake" some years back. A plumber and a heating engineer teamed up and ran a partnership of two. One day working in a house the removed bags containing quite a lot of cash. They thought that the customer had forgotten to remove it prior their vist or had not realised that they would be removing those panels on that day. So they put the bags to one side and gave it to him when he returned home.
As soon as he saw it they knew by his reaction that he was also completely unaware of it.
When the day came to pay them their bill he paid them directly from the bag and there was still plenty left in the bag.
They were a bit miffed that he never offered to split the money with them or even give them a tip for their honesty
LOL.

 

[johnny2007]

The default is for ever, it is not yours so do not take it.

Dust in customers' home belongs to the customers, so I shall leave it there from now on...

 

[robinbanks]

Plenty of people have them installed and will rebut pretty much everything you say

I'll rebut everything he said in his off topic rant

read the theft act and if you don't understand it, ask any police officer

Not sure a police officer would be my first port of call if I wanted the nuances of the legislation explaining to me but I appreciate the sentiment!

 

[johnny2007]

Not sure a police officer would be my first port of call if I wanted the nuances of the legislation explaining to me but I appreciate the sentiment!

They are the ones who make a decision to arrest a thief or not.
Ask them.

 

[ebee]

They are the ones who make a decision to arrest a thief or not.
Ask them.

Yes it is "usually" the case, you are correct. However there are some offences whereby any citizen (a person at lesst 18 years old) has the right, even perhaps a duty, to make an arrest for what used to be known as an arrestable offence. It is wise not to use this usually because it could lead to complications though. Plus you are not expected to put yourself in danger. You are not required to read out "the miranda' and you might have the right to also detain them under certain conditions, however you might have to prove your actions to be entirely reasonabke in all circumstances so best left to the experts. You are also expected to hand them police custody at the earliest opportunity.

You are not allowed to grab them, take them to one side then perform a bit of "industrial training" on them.