Putin, arse, elbow

[Justin Passing]

I read the Russkies have replaced the Moskva boat, but with something so arthritic there's no point targeting it. Looking for verification I came across this, which apart from pointing out what we knew - how vulnerable ships are - has a worth-watching assessment of the Russian ground forces.
A few things in there though much is old. #1 - they must be running low on some missiles like Iskanders
https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-sinking-russian-flagship-moskva-132600545.html

 

[ajohn]

So what? Do you think Ukraine should just surrender?

No he doesn't mean that just what happened. The Ukrainian ship hit has done nothing about ship launched cruise missiles at all. In fact a couple of extra ones to take out the place where they are said to have been made. Launched from missile ships. Their black sea fleet has a number of them and they have been used a number of times since.

 

[denso13]

The Ukrainian ship hit has done nothing about ship launched cruise missiles at all.

Sinking the Black Sea flagship was a massive blow to Vladimir, no doubt about it. No one saw it coming...

 

[ajohn]

they must be running low on some missiles like Iskanders

One of the Russian military men that speaks on their TV did seem to say that they may need to up their precision missile production rate but over a weekend they launched loads of them.

Ships are tricky to protect. Missiles can also be hit. The answer to both aspects is use several what ever is being struck even a ship. The Moskva actually is old hat intended for one specific use not what is needed for Ukraine. Russia's aircraft carrier is even older. Belches black smoke. It's an area they seem to have no interest in. Submarines though - another story. Good for all sort including nuke missiles or what ever they fancy shooting.

 

[IT Minion]

2 British ships were sunk by similar hi tech gimmicks during the Falklands war but they didn't alter the outcome of the war.

It nearly did. If the Argentines had working fuses on their bombs then they'd have gutted our fleet. Thankfully the French manufacturers didn't tell them how to fuse the bombs for low level arming. And if the Argentines had more Exocets the ending could have been quite different.

The inability of the Russian navy to operate close to shore means they can't land amphibious forces or resupply that way. Unlike the Falklands.

 

[Vinty]

So what? Do you think Ukraine should just surrender?

No i don't.
I just think the situation is not as black and white as some people believe.

A pretty balanced BBC report from Ukraine 8 years ago.

 

[Justin Passing]

The article I linked above points out that it only takes one hit with an anti-ship missile to put it out of action. The guidance systems are unreal now. China is reported to have one with 2500 mile range.

Missiles can also be hit.

Well, not if they're too fast. USA seems to be playing catch-up. The have several types in development.
This article sounds desperate: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/r...und-secret-killing-hypersonic-missiles-177824

 

[Justin Passing]

No i don't.
I just think the situation is not as black and white as some people believe.

A pretty balanced BBC report from Ukraine 8 years ago.

Agree. Much of the western media isn't doing us any favours.
Knowing F all about the history I read Wikipedia etc a few weeks back. There were various bogus votes and referenda, but it seemed like in the Donbas there were some wanting to be part of Russia, some part of Ukraine, (20 odd percent each) and the vast majority just wanting to be treated decently so asking for independence. Kyiv did not treat them well. Agreements at Minsk-2 weren't stuck to, Kyiv was far too indiscriminate with shelling, and on and on. Everybody's corrupt as hell, of course.
Ukraine was not doing well. Compare say with Poland, post the Wall coming down.
Addded to which, those hankering after the Soviet days would point out that though they didn't have political freedom, they did have an economic freedom - people could eat, and get on with their lives.

 

[bernardgreen]

It is bit ironic that Ukrainian scientists and engineers were and still are contributing to the development of space travel and missile technology and some Russian missiles quite probably use Ukrainian technology.

https://www.golem.de/news/raumfahrt-ukraine-ist-eine-unterschaetzte-raumfahrtnation-2203-163491.html

Ukraine is an underrated space nation
Without Ukrainian technology, many missiles in the US, Europe and Russia remain grounded. It often remains anonymous or is even kept secret.

Ukraine's participation often remains hidden or even deliberately concealed. This is the case, for example, with Germany's Rocketfactory Augsburg , which only admitted to sourcing its technology from Ukraine under pressure . To date, the company has not mentioned this in corporate communications.

Not much better with the European Vega rocket, whose AVUM upper stage is powered by a Ukrainian RD-843 engine. Although the manual contains a reference to the manufacturer Yuzhnoye, Ukraine is not mentioned anywhere as an indispensable partner country for the construction and launch of the rocket. The current stock of RD-843 engines from the last order of 2021 will be exhausted in 2023.

 

[ajohn]

Well, not if they're too fast

LOL Whoops I had forgot mach 5+ missiles. The range you mentioned by the way seems to be short by a factor of 2. I suppose if some one went into it enough they could produce a missile that could be used against ships or land targets.

Submarines figure with ships too. Take the Falklands. The captain of that particular hit didn't use one of his super expensive ones just a standard type that has been around since WWII.

One of the early idea on cruise missiles was to keep them low to avoid radar detection. Inertial guidance plus image recognition corrections at times. Landscape features such as church used to demonstrate the idea. Not mentioned but given imaging and satellites the last stage of targetting could be done remotely. I'd suspect that high mach numbers means that can not be kept low. any more.

 

[ajohn]

No i don't.
I just think the situation is not as black and white as some people believe.

A pretty balanced BBC report from Ukraine 8 years ago.

I picked up most of that from the wiki and earlier articles by various sources. The video shows the end result with kids especially in the Kyev area. A training camp. Learn to fight and lectures on nationalism. They take them rather young. Oly backing figures as with the early fighting. The trouble with mentioning this area is people say oh a Russian supporter. I'm not but this area does leave questions about Ukraine politics. A far more recent report showed an anti Russian demo in a large city. The reporter pointed out it wasn't representative. Also talked to a number of people in and around. There is a right old mix of Russians and Ukrainians that even stretches across either side of the boarder. Even relatives and mixed marriages. It's been like that for a long time. It can't be any more.

The current situation ending? Other than one side giving up in some way or the other there is no reason why it should. The west figures in that too. Maybe Russia will run out or mess up etc or maybe they wont. Blinken who is in Kyev was pushing the take over all of Ukraine again and how that has been prevented. It's not a valid description of what has been going on. He has also said that they do not know how the war will unfold and guaranteed further military aid. Also that he wants to see Russia weakened to the extent that they can never do this sort of thing again. Ok but mean time people are dying. That is the cost. It always is in wars. We are seeing it all on this one - that is rather unusual.

 

[Notch7]

No i don't.
I just think the situation is not as black and white as some people believe.

A pretty balanced BBC report from Ukraine 8 years ago.

The people of Donbas just want order, they want economic conditions to improve.

How do you think bombing them out of existence is going to help?

And yes it is black and white: Putin invaded so he could steal the assets of Ukraine and if you think any part of that is acceptable you are a Putin apologist

 

[ajohn]

More strikes in Ukraine. Oil and railway. One railway shown - a substation powering it. There were others also hits in the west. Their troops are also showing signs of interest in a town that didn't appear to be of interest to them.

An ex USA European commander says the artillery wont be the USA's latest as they couldn't use it. Must admit I am fed up with the ex's

 

[ajohn]

if you think any part of that is acceptable you are a Putin apologist

He isn't. He's just pointing out some background and a number of other factors could be added.

The people of Donbas just want order, they want economic conditions to improve.

Did you notice the part about a pension change? Do you wonder how many people in Ukraine as a whole in real terms just want order?

 

[denso13]

The video shows the end result with kids especially in the Kyev area. A training camp. Learn to fight and lectures on nationalism. They take them rather young. Oly backing figures as with the early fighting. The trouble with mentioning this area is people say oh a Russian supporter. I'm not but this area does leave questions about Ukraine politics. A far more recent report showed an anti Russian demo in a large city. The reporter pointed out it wasn't representative.

Have you seen the state of russian politics and how they treat dissenters? You only ever talk about the bad Ukrainians...